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Kaze
January 18th, 2007, 04:26 PM
It is pretty much what we had expected, full story:

WASHINGTON (AP) -- President Bush acknowledged for the first time Wednesday that he erred by not ordering a military buildup in Iraq last year and said he was increasing U.S. troops by 21,500 to quell the country's near-anarchy. "Where mistakes have been made, the responsibility rests with me," Bush said.

The buildup puts Bush on a collision course with the new Democratic Congress and pushes the American troop presence in Iraq toward its highest level. It also runs counter to widespread anti-war passions among Americans and the advice of some top generals.

In a prime-time address to the nation, Bush pushed back against the Democrats' calls to end the unpopular war. He said that "to step back now would force a collapse of the Iraqi government, tear that country apart and result in mass killings on an unimaginable scale."

"If we increase our support at this crucial moment and help the Iraqis break the current cycle of violence, we can hasten the day our troops begin coming home," Bush said. But he braced Americans to expect more U.S. casualties for now and did not specify how long the additional troops would stay.

In addition to extra U.S. forces, the plan envisions Iraq's committing 10,000 to 12,000 more troops to secure Baghdad's neighborhoods - and taking the lead in military operations.

Even before Bush's address, the new Democratic leaders of Congress emphasized their opposition to a buildup. "This is the third time we are going down this path. Two times this has not worked," House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, D-Calif., said after meeting with the president. "Why are they doing this now? That question remains."

There was criticism from Republicans, as well. "This is a dangerously wrongheaded strategy that will drive America deeper into an unwinnable swamp at a great cost," said Sen. Chuck Hagel, R-Neb., a Vietnam veteran and potential GOP presidential candidate.

After nearly four years of bloody combat, the speech was perhaps Bush's last credible chance to try to present a winning strategy in Iraq and persuade Americans to change their minds about the unpopular war, which has cost the lives of more than 3,000 members of the U.S. military as well as more than $400 billion.

Senate and House Democrats are arranging votes urging the president not to send more troops. While lacking the force of law, the measures would compel Republicans to go on record as either bucking the president or supporting an escalation.

Usually loath to admit error, Bush said it also was a mistake to have allowed American forces to be restricted by the Iraqi government, which tried to prevent U.S. military operations against fighters controlled by the radical Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr, a powerful political ally of Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki. The president said al-Maliki had assured him that from now on, "political or sectarian interference will not be tolerated."

As Bush spoke for 20 minutes from the unusual setting of the White House library, the sounds of protesters amassed outside the compound's gates occasionally filtered through.

Bush's approach amounts to a huge gamble on al-Maliki's willingness - and ability - to deliver on promises he has consistently failed to keep: to disband Shiite militias, pursue national reconciliation and make good on commitments for Iraqi forces to handle security operations in Baghdad.

"Our past efforts to secure Baghdad failed for two principal reasons: There were not enough Iraqi and American troops to secure neighborhoods that had been cleared of terrorists and insurgents," the president said. "And there were too many restrictions on the troops we did have."

He said American commanders have reviewed the Iraqi plan "to ensure that it addressed these mistakes."

With Americans overwhelmingly unhappy with his Iraq strategy, Bush said it was a legitimate question to ask why this strategy to secure Baghdad will succeed where other operations failed. "This time we will have the force levels we need to hold the areas that have been cleared," the president said.

While Bush put the onus on the Iraqis to meet their responsibilities and commit more troops, he did not threaten specific consequences if they do not. Iraq has missed previous self-imposed timetables for taking over security responsibilities.

Bush, however, cited the government's latest optimistic estimate. "To establish its authority, the Iraqi government plans to take responsibility for security in all of Iraq's provinces by November," the president said.

Still, Bush said that "America's commitment is not open-ended. If the Iraqi government does not follow through on its promises, it will lose the support of the American people and it will lose the support of the Iraqi people. Now is the time to at."

Resisting calls for troop reductions, Bush said that "failure in Iraq would be a disaster for the United States. ... A democratic Iraq will not be perfect. But it will be a country that fights terrorists instead of harboring them."

But Bush warned that the strategy would, in a short term he did not define, bring more violence rather than less.

"Even if our new strategy works exactly as planned, deadly acts of violence will continue, and we must expect more Iraqi and American casualties," he said. "The question is whether our new strategy will bring us closer to success. I believe that it will."

Bush's warning was echoed by Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz., a leading proponent of a troop increase. "Is it going to be a strain on the military? Absolutely. Casualties are going to go up," the senator said.

Bush said he considered calls from Democrats and some Republicans to pull back American forces. He concluded it would devastate Iraq and "result in our troops being forced to stay even longer."

But he offered a concession to Congress - the establishment of a bipartisan working group to formalize regular consultations on Iraq. He said he was open to future exchanges and better ideas.

Bush's strategy ignored key recommendations of the Iraq Study Group, which in December called for a new diplomatic offensive and an outreach to Syria and Iran. Instead, he accused both countries of aiding terrorists and insurgents in Iraq. "We will disrupt the attacks on our forces," Bush said. "We will interrupt the flow of support from Iran and Syria."

The troop buildup comes two months after elections that were widely seen as a call for the withdrawal of some or all U.S. forces from Iraq. Polling by AP-Ipsos in December found that only 27 percent of Americans approved of Bush's handling of Iraq, his lowest rating yet.

The president's address is the centerpiece of an aggressive public relations campaign that also includes detailed briefings for lawmakers and a series of appearances by Bush starting with a trip Thursday to Fort Benning, Ga. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice heads to the Mideast a day after appearing Thursday with Defense Secretary Robert Gates at hearings on Iraq convened by the Democrats.

Bush's blueprint would boost the number of U.S. troops in Iraq - now at 132,000 - to 153,500 at a cost of $5.6 billion. The highest number was 160,000 a year ago in a troop buildup for Iraqi elections.

The latest increase calls for sending 17,500 U.S. combat troops to Baghdad. The first of five brigades will arrive by next Monday. The next would arrive by Feb. 15 and the remaining would come in 30-day increments.

Bush also committed 4,000 more Marines to Anbar Province, a base of the Sunni insurgency and foreign al-Qaida fighters.

Bush's plan mirrored earlier moves attempting to give Iraqi forces a bigger security role. The chief difference appeared to be a recognition that the Iraqis need more time to take on the full security burden.

Another difference involves doubling the number of U.S. civilian workers who help coordinate local reconstruction projects. These State Department-led units - dubbed Provincial Reconstruction Teams - are to focus on projects both inside and outside the heavily guarded Green Zone, and some will be merged into combat brigades. The portion of Bush's plan intended to boost economic aid and job creation was given a price tag of just over $1 billion.

Several Republican senators are candidates for backing the resolution against a troop increase. Sens. Susan Collins and Olympia Snowe of Maine, Gordon Smith of Oregon and Norm Coleman of Minnesota said they oppose sending more soldiers.

Republican Sens. George Voinovich of Ohio and John Warner of Virginia also might be persuaded. Warner said he supports the Iraq Study Group recommendations, which strongly cautioned against an increase in troops unless advocated by military commanders.Call me absolutely crazy, but I am in full support of the President's plan for action in Iraq. What it comes down to is that we didn't place enough emphasis on security in the young nation, and we are paying for those mistakes now. Hopefully with the extra 17,000 troops in Baghdad alone will make enough of a difference to lower violence, but that is something that we will have to wait and see.

What it comes down to is that we are committed to the success of the Iraqi government, and without peace in the nation, the nation of Iraq will never achieve the goals set before it. Certainly we may be placing ourselves in the center of a "civil war," but if we were to pull out, we would be in a far-worse situation than where we would be sending in extra troops.

I think what it comes down to is that education plays an important role in the decisions for and against these actions in Iraq. Without an understanding of war, occupation, and later withdraw from a given nation, it is very hard to criticize action in Iraq simply because "you don't like war." That isn't a good reason. The problem is, if America doesn't face the terrorists/insurgents/foreign-fighters/etc, who will? Europe would be happy to let Iraq fall flat on its face, and I'm sure China the same, as they could later sweep in and "clean up," gaining a new economic and military ally to pump more money into the growing superpower.

Ah, but the shouts are that too many troops have died already, and too many more will die in the future. However, do I need to point out the obvious?

World War II: 405,399 (4 year war, 101,349.75 per year)
Korean War: 54,308 (3 year war, 18,102.67 per year)
Vietnam War: 90,199 (11 year war 8,109.9 per year)
Gulf War I: 2094 (1 year war)

All things considered, not that many troops have died in Iraq. Given that we just crested 3000 American servicemen/servicewomen deaths in Iraq in just shy of four years, we are well short of the rates as posted above. If America doesn't have the stomach for battles such as this, I do indeed fear for the security of our country and the War on Terror which we must fight.

---

Anyway, what are your thoughts (if any?)[/quote]

Ares
January 18th, 2007, 04:42 PM
Sending in MORE troops in Iraq isn't going to do much. If anything, it will make the Iraqi security forces rely on the US even more. The surge, at best, is going to delay the almost-inevitable (an outright civil war within Iraq), and at worst, it going to do nothing at all.

As for the deaths, well, America's alot softer now than we were several years ago. The government has loaded the common person with a helluva lot of information about the technological superweapons that we now have, such as Predator drones which can launch a missile at a Taliban leader that flies through a 3 square foot window and destroys ONLY the house he's in, or a Stealth Fighter which drops a bunker buster that counts the number of times it breaks through a floor, to detonate directly inside the dining room of a high-ranking terrorist. The American people believe that nasty ground wars are a thing of the past. Ever since Vietnam, America now believes that loosing even a single soldier in combat is next to unacceptable. Remember Somalia? 14 Soldiers down, and we pull out. The Marine base in Lebanon? One barracks bombed, we pull out.

Point is, the United States has almost created a reputation of geting out of the fight when it gets to a certain point, and that point has been crossed (multiple times over) in Iraq. Many people that have no idea how war even works, let alone what's happening in Iraq (aside from what their Left or Right-wing news source tells them) and why (a point the news media loves to ignore). The common person is either confused about why we haven't pulled out, or is certain that somebody "smarter than they are" has things in control at Washington.

Kaze
January 18th, 2007, 06:10 PM
And where are you getting your information? Do you have some inside source through the US government giving you direct and clear information about the war's status?

You get your info the same place everyone else gets it. The media. I honestly believe that sending in more troops will, if anything, slightly improve the situation.

As I stated, if Americans cannot handle such a small loss as this (in comparison with other major wars), then we're headed to hell in a handbasket. Alot of the greenpeace, tree-hugging, don't-eat-anything-with-a-face preaching bastards need to realize that if we back out now, it's putting our allies and ourselves at risk. We would be completely open to attack, and it would take a long time to set our offense back up again to take the war back to their soil if they would happen to attack the US again after we would back out. Many years ago, our enemies were not nearly as advanced as we were technologically-wise (besides a few, anyways). Now, our enemies have sources to WMDs and other weapons we may not know about. This makes it a greater threat here on our soil if we happen to back out. Admittedly, it's not so much a war as it is an occupying-Iraq situation. The US government really wants to turn Iraq into a bastard child of the United States, and we keep getting domed when we try to. If almost 22,000 troops can't at least make progress on taking Iraq back, then we have no hope at all.

Ares
January 18th, 2007, 09:55 PM
You're treating this like a conventional war, when it's actually an international police action.

Assuming we pulled out of Iraq, it'd leave us just as open to attack as we have been. Sure, it'd be a terrorist haven, but than again, is that too different from how the situation is now?

You're also acting as though Iraq is the final stand for America. It's not.

Winning the war in Iraq is not vital. It's not necessary for Iraq to be a stable, pseudo-US when all US troops leave. Even if it was, we wouldn't be able to accomplish it- the terrorists know America has a very finite amount of support for a war once the casualties start adding up. They know its only a matter of time until a president snaps and pulls out, and then thats however many thousand lives have been wasted because Dubyah needed another target once Osama became hard to find.

You also need to consider that the problems behind Iraqi stability are more fundamental than the size of US troops stationed in Baghdad, or other places in Iraq. The Sunni and Shia Muslims have been fighting for centuries... and now they're going to stop, hold hands, praise Allah for the United States entering and uniting them, and leave in peace? Hell no! The only reason why the situation was like this when Saddam was in power was because people were scared of him!

21,500 more troops is certainly a force to be reckoned with... but its the wrong type of force applied to this problem.

TheTaxidermist
January 18th, 2007, 10:38 PM
If it doesn't help eliminate the large majority of terrorist in iraq, then it's probably a wasted effort. My thinking is, 2,000 years of dispute in the middle east, and we are trying to end it in less than a decade (if you don't count the Gulf War)?

Atomic Waffle
January 18th, 2007, 11:03 PM
http://nukebastards.ytmnd.com/

NeoSeeker
January 18th, 2007, 11:04 PM
All I know is that the US better not reinstate the draft!!!

rtanger
January 18th, 2007, 11:29 PM
I'm confident of the fact that if I was drafted, I'd section 8 before preliminary training was complete. And it probably wouldn't be purposeful....

NeoSeeker
January 19th, 2007, 01:28 AM
Define "section 8".

zim
January 19th, 2007, 03:09 AM
I assume http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Section_8_(military)

Basiclly, your too mentally unfit to be of any use.

Paper Clip
January 19th, 2007, 03:36 AM
Well, flag waving, I love my country, and USA do or die aside, the real reason bush cannot pull out of Iraq is because if he does, it will fall to the insurgents and if that happens he will look like a fool for getting into the war in the first place. This isn\\\'t about home security, defending the USA or for makeing the Iraq people free, its about trying to cover up the biggest mistake ever made by a american president and that mistake is entering a war where the enemy wasn\\\'t. If bush had his head on straight he would have sent the troops to afganistan where that ben laden dude was. But instead he attacks Iraq. The war is tragic, I support the troops but I dont support the war or the continuing of the war. This isn\\\'t a football game where we have to win to feel good about ourselves or prove to everyone in the whole freakin world that we are bad asses. The USA needs to pull out and let the Iraq guys fight there own war. It has nothing to do with us. The terroirst pulled out a long time ago and are laughing their butts off because us americans are too dumb to figure this out. Its a real shame.

klaymore
January 19th, 2007, 09:23 AM
Shiot, Im enlisting in the marines when I finish my AAS degree.


I'm more then happy to go to Iraq

Blairyfairy
January 19th, 2007, 09:29 AM
I hate bush this is absoloutly retarded but its just my opinion .. why cant we be like australia ... well ... we are going to mind our own buisness and when some one asks for help tell them maybe ... yep **** america goin to dingo land

klaymore
January 19th, 2007, 09:33 AM
Imo we should have done this along time ago, Initially we sent in half the amount of men and equipment we used during the 1st Iraq war.



+ this is a sign of a last push to withdrawal, We give the Iraqis 1 last chance to take what we gave them or we just leave and let them kill themselves all over again.

Blairyfairy
January 19th, 2007, 10:12 AM
I just hate all of this not to sound like a hippie but it makes my head hurt ... almost all my friends up and left and now they are all in iraq one friend almost died im lonly and pissed off i haven't watched the news in almost 2 years ... i just dont like it

klaymore
January 19th, 2007, 11:09 AM
That sucks, But thats what soldiers do.

Blairyfairy
January 19th, 2007, 11:41 AM
But its stupid * gets mad*

Ares
January 19th, 2007, 04:02 PM
I just hate all of this not to sound like a hippie but it makes my head hurt ... almost all my friends up and left and now they are all in iraq one friend almost died im lonly and pissed off i haven't watched the news in almost 2 years ... i just dont like it

Well, like it or not, soldiers kill. We need soldiers to do their job somewhere in the world now, we'll need them to do their job in the future, and we always have needed them

Shiot, Im enlisting in the marines when I finish my AAS degree.


I'm more then happy to go to Iraq

I hear you man. Soon as I get out of Highschool I'm gunna try to get on the fastest path possible to Fighter-Pilot, then over-seas. Just hope they don't have everyone replaced by UCAVs and UAVs by then...

Blairyfairy
January 19th, 2007, 04:46 PM
Every one in my family goes into the navy I wanted to go into the navy but i messed my knee up 4 years ago in a car accident ... every one i know was stupid and joined the reserves and isnt getting **** for joining and im sad and lonly and bsdjf;lkdjf * mad* i know they are nessacary im just really upset

Collision
January 23rd, 2007, 06:16 AM
Hipbip ****ing hooray

More people get to die.

Kester
January 23rd, 2007, 06:22 AM
Shiot, Im enlisting in the marines when I finish my AAS degree.


I'm more then happy to go to Iraq
I've always wanted to join the British army as a combat engineer, although Nic came along and got in the way.

I understand what joining the army actually means. It's not a home for a few years it actually means you fight for you country and you may very well die doing that. People should realise that.

Collision
January 23rd, 2007, 07:00 AM
I wouldnt even consider going back into the military.

Cadets for 8 years is enough, plus I only did it to fill in time.

Kester
January 23rd, 2007, 07:03 AM
See that is the biggest problem with people joining the army these days. They do it to pass time then whine when they are taken to a war zone.

Collision
January 23rd, 2007, 07:27 AM
Hence why I quit before I turned 18, so then I didnt have to do my 2 years service.

klaymore
January 23rd, 2007, 12:11 PM
When I get in I plan on volunteering for any combat duty I can get

Ares
January 23rd, 2007, 05:12 PM
See that is the biggest problem with people joining the army these days. They do it to pass time then whine when they are taken to a war zone.

I've found that people who join the service either want to join up to pass the time or get the benefits then whine, as you said, or join it specifically because they want to be in a combat profession. Don't think I've ever seen someone in the middle-ground.

Blah3156
April 24th, 2007, 10:30 AM
Bush just fights that war ony for money and oil, he doesn't care about his troops. It's all about the money


PS : If Chuck Norris falls in the water Chuck Norris doesn't become wet, but the water becomes Chuck Norris:P

Winged One
April 25th, 2007, 05:05 PM
tl;dr

Here's my opinion...you don't put out a fire by adding new logs.

Mad Scientist
April 25th, 2007, 05:28 PM
Tis a conundrum this. It is beginning to look as though a unilateral withdraw may save lives, but equally i don't like the implication that the west can waltz into someone else's country, bugger things up royally, then leave without setting things right.

I sense this is a situation that has no answer without massive (even more so then now) bloodshed, and inflammation of a clash of ideologies that is already having implications far from the middle east.

Winged One
April 25th, 2007, 05:50 PM
All thanks to that president we love to hate!:D

Kester
April 26th, 2007, 05:40 AM
tl;dr

Here's my opinion...you don't put out a fire by adding new logs.
However, you do stop bush fires by starting new fires.

The irony is almost palpable.