Is there Intelligent life somewhere in the universe besides us?

[TheTaxidermist]

I'm surprised nobody has started a debate about this already. So, do you think there are aliens, or some kind of intelligent being out in the universe besides us humans? Me personally, I think there may be some kind of life out there somewhere, like some microscopic creatures, but as for an intelligent creature being out in space somewhere that builds super advanced spaceships and travels light years to come to earth, I don't think so. What about you guys?

[rtanger]

The universe is far too large for us humans to be the only signifigant thing to happen to it.

There's more than likely life everywhere, and new forms of life are discovered everyday here on Earth that rewrite the book on what life is and what it takes for something to be 'alive'. I've read several theories up to this point that seem to suggest that life itself is an inherent property of matter.

There's rudimentary forms of life, Archaea, that sit between virii and bacteria as far as form goes, they are miniscule little cell-like forms that share a protein structure with virii but have basic metabolism like bacteria. Some forms of these semi-bacteria live in what amounts to powerful sulphuric acid in mines in California.

There's life at the bottom of the oceans that see no solar light and live off of sulphuric vents. New life is discovered in this zone everyday.

Life inhabits literally every zone on Earth, even those that most would consider inhospitable, like within the ice of Antarctica, or indeed giant, extremely caustic vats of toxic chemicals.

There's no reason to believe that there's no other life, indeed within our own solar system, even if it's simple, rudimentary bacteria-like forms. Below Mars is a strong contender, as is (believe it or not) the poisonous pools of Venus, and the ice moon of Saturn. All have the potential to have life in some fashion. Shoot, we can't stop discovering strange new forms of life on our own planet, and we want to assume that the entire rest of the universe is devoid?

Our understanding of our own Solar System, let alone the entire universe, is so insignifigant as to form any sound conclusions that Earth is the only vessel of life in the entire universe, and this kind of thought could only be the egotistical pipe dream of creationists who want to believe that the Earth is special in that it's the only area inhabited by intelligent life in the entire universe.

I can't swallow that, and while we should avoid turning this into yet another religious debate, to simply believe that the entirety of the universe is devoid of life even other intelligent life, save for our simple little blue sphere, is impossible for me to take any stock whatsoever in it.

It's interesting that every time someone mentions life on other planets, they automatically must be more advanced than humans and capable of feats like world peace and interstellar travel. Obviously, world peace and interstellar travel are not prerequisites for life to exist, so to mention even one in connection with the possibility of intelligent life on another planet is rather suspect of you, Taxidermist.

[Natoksane]

Qft ^^^ Rt

[Flarty]

looking at the human race, i say i hope not =/

[Ares]

I'm going to quote both RTanger and Flarty for truth on this one.

Life's undeniably out there. It's just a matter of finding it.

[(Undecided)]

Given the calculated number of habitable planets in the universe it is extremely likely that there is sentient life outside of this world.


However I doubt that we will ever meet them. Warp drive may be teh 13370rz but I doubt humans will ever be able to trick the laws of physics into letting them travel faster than light. As for inter-stellar travel at sub-luminous speeds: why would you even bother?

[Ares]

^We can't really conceptualize a way today (well, most of us can, expect Mad Scientist to smash that idea down once he notices this thread), but I wouldn't be suprised if in the distant future going Tachyonic would be something not to be joked about.

[TheTaxidermist]

No, im not questioning whether or not there is life out there. Im asking if you think there is life out there that has intelligence equal to or greater than humans. You misinterpret what I mean by intelligent life, obviously.

[Flarty]

i didnt read my answer :P

[rtanger]

the only area inhabited by intelligent life in the entire universe.

entirety of the universe is devoid of life even other intelligent life

so to mention even one in connection with the possibility of intelligent life

I understand the distinction, but for me right now, any proof of any life, even a tiny alien bacteria would be an amazing sight, so I tend to generalize. My bad. But either way my main points stand, I simply can't fathom the idea that humans are the most advanced creature in the universe. It's simply too large and there's too little that we know to solidly conclude without hesitation that there's no other intelligent life in the universe. My same point about creationists stands. etc. etc. insert the words "intelligent" where lacking, unless it's connection with bacteria etc. etc. these points all stand for any creature greater than and including a moneran, sessile, mobile, plant, fungus, animal, etc. etc.
I'm sick of writing....

[bu11eTJuNkiE]

i think if there is life on other planets it will be things like animals as in bears, rabbits, dogs, cats, fish, etc. type of animals.

[rtanger]

What would bar intelligence on the level of humans from developing elsewhere? Is it really that easy for someone to believe that we are truly alone in this vast, infinite void that is paradoxically packed to the brim with galaxies and star systems and wonders at which we can only speculate their function? In all of this vastness and its billions of stars and planets, we just so happen to be the only place where something sprouted a brain and learned to bang rocks together, and just kind of went from there?

Our knowlege of the scope of the universe is nothing. To even equate our planet to one grain of sand in a beach is to still laregly underestimate the apparent size of this realm in which we live.

It just goes in the face of all evidence to the contrary right here on our very planet to assume that no other life anywhere could be as intelligent, if not possibly moreso than humankind.

[morolen]

i agree, the numbers are against there not being life. however, based on the size of the universe, i think it seems unlikely that we will find extra-solar life at all.

[Mad Scientist]

^We can't really conceptualize a way today (well, most of us can, expect Mad Scientist to smash that idea down once he notices this thread),

You BET I AM!

There sits on my external hard drive, a document, many pages long, detailing the various theories of faster than light travel that humanity has come up with. I would host it somewhere, but currently it is 14Mb and i cannot be bothered to upload it. I have researched this in some depth, and i can say that FTL is NOT as far ahead of us as you may think. If some of these theories are correct, then in a seperate file, sits a nice and neat collection of numbered parts and diagrams for the core of a hyperdrive that could potentially jump large distances instantaniously. Such a device could definatly be built within our lifetimes. Even if that design is wrong, then there are other techniques we could potentially use. To put it simply, if humanity keeps on progressing, without a collapse of civilisation, we WILL get it cracked someday.

However, there is an interesting problem with intellegent life. It is known as the fermi paradox:

First, we have are basic assumptions:

1. Life will evolve wherever and whenever it can. Evidense suggests that as soon as the surface of the earth cooled to the point where liquid water could exist, life was already on the way. It is such a simple thing to start up, that it only requires three things:

An abundance of compounds containing its basic chemical. In out case, that means lots of carbon chemistry, however sulpher and silicone lifeforms may be viable.

An abundance of a solvent that would allow chemical reaction to take place in. In our case, water, however this could also be sulpuric acid, or a silicone based solvent in the examples i mentioned above.

A source of energy. Sunlight, hydrothermal vents, other creatures - it doesn't really matter. Life can evolve to make use of any energy form that we know of. Indeed, we have even found bacteria that live in the cooling water of nuclear reactors, that actually absorb radiative energy.

There is a lot of evidence to back all this up, so i will move onto the next assumption:

2. Life will evolve to a point where it can spread across the universe, or at least make its presence known.

Take a little look at THIS (http://forums.gamernode.com/showpost.php?p=136141&postcount=1062) picture, that i keep on my desktop. This shot of the earth very neatly illustraits the point. Humans have only been around less than a few million years, and already, you'd have to be blind to miss the fact that we're on this planet. For the last hundred years, we've been throwing out electromagnetic radiation on a lot of wavelengths that anyone in a 100 light year radius with the smae technology as us would be able to detect. We've only really had history for a few thousand years, and already, some humans have left the confines of this planet. Life grows and expands. Thats what Life does!

So here is the problem - if life evolves everywhere, and if life spreads out as soon as it can, why are we the only ones here? This is the fermi Paradox, and it is a paradox not because it has no solution, but because it has thousands of solutions - all of them rediculously unlikly.

Suppose those initial assumptions are wrong? Well that would mean we are the only fast evolving, expansive species in a large volume of space. Remember, all it takes is just one species to be like us, and we'd spot them from light years away. It just seems ludicruos to suppose that we are the only ones here with our eyes on the sky.

So what if we are the only people who use radio? What if we are the first species to develope sentiance? What if some strange force is killing off species before they can make themselve known? What if all the aliens got together and pretend to hide from us?

These would all solve the problem, but they are all rediculously unlikly. All it takes is ONE species to discover radio, to be far enough ahead of us to discover FTL, to escape the killer force that silences sentience, to break the intergalactic sanctions, and we'd know about it. And whats more, this wouldn't be some alambama hick claiming his wife was abducted by aliens for recto-probing. This would be the kind of undoubtable appearance or evidense that would be very hard to doubt without invoking mass hallucenation.

Its a paradox ladies and gents. You cannot find a solution that doesn't seem unlikly, when you consider the numbers of stars involved.

[Flarty]

i cant see the pretty picture :(

Also http://www.shoutwire.com/viewstory/48524/Eavesdropping_On_E_T_Sooner_Than_We_Think

[rtanger]

I figure you'd be aware Mad Scientist, that cool picture is a composite of two different shots, and the lights of earth aren't very visible from space.

Still neat, but I don't think it illustrates your point in quite the way you were looking for, or at least not as honestly as you either may or may not have hoped.

[Mad Scientist]

You are correct about the shot, however, although this shot is a technically a composite, an "enhancement" would be a more accurate word when compared to the original (which was published in a newspaper, however i cannot find it online). The lights of human technology ARE visible from space, you just have to look a little harder. You cannot see the lights if there is any lightside of earth in veiw, but a fully dark-ajusted (but still unasisted) human eye can still pick out and identify human cities, even from the distance of the moon (as apollo astronauts have testified).

[Atomic Waffle]

The surest sign of intelligent life in the universe is that none has tried to contact us.

[marrow]

if humans are the most intelligent beings in the universe, i pity the universe..

[Chrispy]

I say yes. And that's not just X-Files talking.

[Quasar]

Read a sci-fi novel ( I think it was called East of Eden) once where the Earth was actually quarantined (unknown to us) by the rest of the sentient life forms in the universe because our societies were so corrupt. They didn't want to get contaminated by us so they were only allowed to watch us from a far...hence UFO's but no contact. According to the story, we (humans) were the only life forms to have been corrupted. So if there is life out there, they just might be avoiding us like the plague. I mean, really, if you were them, would YOU want to meet us? lol.

[Mad Scientist]

But if the statistical aproach is right, then there would be a HELL of a lot of life out their. If this is the case, why would each and every single one avoid us? Its a position of implausibility, as all it takes is one species to be like us, just one to break whatever quarantine may be in place, and we'd know about it. Equally, to assume that life is rare in the galaxy also seems unlikly given the sheer size of the area involved, and the implausibility of us being the only developed life forms in this part of the galaxy.

And equally, although many people have wondered why any intellegent aliens would wish to talk to us? We can postulate that for any civilisation to have devloped to the level of complexity required to detect/visit other sentient species, they must have a reasonably high degree of curiosity and creativity, in order to have driven thier species that far.

And if i was a creative and curious species of extra terrestrials, i would sure as hell like to meet a species that managed to go from mud huts to space stations in only a few thousand years.

[DKR1138]

In my own opinion 100% yes on this issue, other life won't be of the same makeup and may evolve under different circumstances creating as we can see on our own earth a multitude of species of multiple complexities.... Whether or not this life is intelligent enough to make contact is another thing, maybe it doesn't have the urge to make contact, or is at a technological standpoint where they might think sharing there technology to greedy people would be unwise on there part or maybe there just like our early mammals or fish.

Life is certain, the level of complexity is another thing.

[Quasar]

But if the statistical aproach is right, then there would be a HELL of a lot of life out their. If this is the case, why would each and every single one avoid us? Its a position of implausibility, as all it takes is one species to be like us, just one to break whatever quarantine may be in place, and we'd know about it. Equally, to assume that life is rare in the galaxy also seems unlikly given the sheer size of the area involved, and the implausibility of us being the only developed life forms in this part of the galaxy.

And equally, although many people have wondered why any intellegent aliens would wish to talk to us? We can postulate that for any civilisation to have devloped to the level of complexity required to detect/visit other sentient species, they must have a reasonably high degree of curiosity and creativity, in order to have driven thier species that far.

And if i was a creative and curious species of extra terrestrials, i would sure as hell like to meet a species that managed to go from mud huts to space stations in only a few thousand years.According to the novel, this was precisely the reason why the other life forms avoided us...they were on such a high level of development in their societies, (in regards to being civilized, peaceful, and highly advanced even in spiritual matters) that they agreed that mere contact with the human race would prove disastrous to them because of our substandard nature--they would pick up the horrendous attitudes and morays of our society. In other words, innocence is easily corrupted given the correct circumstances. The idea is totally intriguing to me because the story infers that the human race are the only life forms in the universe that have de-evolved due to our violent and selfish makeup.

Of course, if you take this idea even further, our (human) egocentric makeup would feel slighted and would fail to comprehend why higher beings wouldn't find us delightfully interesting--the concept would be totally beyond our reach because of our own myopic view of ourselves. It's not a scenario that is very pleasant, but it sure is one of the most novel (pun not intended) ideas that I have read about, regarding higher sentient life forms and their view of us.

[Atomic Waffle]

How do you define "intelligent"? Their minds (or what substitutes it) would most likely be vastly different than ours and their method of thinking likewise.

[TheTaxidermist]

Something that doesn't rely simply on instincts to survive, such as squirrels for instance. They rely on instincts alone to survive the harsh winters. Something that can reason, the way humans do. Sure some animals can do things, but they can't question why they are doing them.

[Chrispy]

Something that doesn't rely simply on instincts to survive, such as squirrels for instance. They rely on instincts alone to survive the harsh winters. Something that can reason, the way humans do. Sure some animals can do things, but they can't question why they are doing them.

I'd say it's as simple as something that shows sentience and has intention.

As for the concept of aliens avoiding us so as to avoid 'infection', more or less, seems implausible to me--would they all really feel that way? And why would there be slight contact, in the form of UFO sightings, but never anything more?

[Atomic Waffle]

How do we know that they are biological beings? They could be vast meteorlogical beings, mechanical beings, hell, they could be made out of pure electricity for all we know! We don't know enough about the universe to make assumptions about life in it.

[TheTaxidermist]

Yeah and how come they always abduct hillbillies and cows? If they're looking at hillbillies to interpret what our race is like, then they have been terribly misled.

[DKR1138]

Maybe they know Hillbillies and cows are expendable assets.

[Collision]

Yeah and how come they always abduct hillbillies and cows? If they're looking at hillbillies to interpret what our race is like, then they have been terribly misled.

Hence why they never came to visit, they abducted morons and animals and thought 'hey, these humans are morons, i dont want to meet them, come on, lets check out mars.'

[Mad Scientist]

How do we know that they are biological beings? They could be vast meteorlogical beings, mechanical beings, hell, they could be made out of pure electricity for all we know! We don't know enough about the universe to make assumptions about life in it.

You underestimate how much we know. We might not know everything, but we've come a hell of a long way. We know a bit about the universe by now, and indeed, nobody is rulling out non-biological life. However we should still assume that their are other forms of biological life, as to assume that we are the only one is the height of implausibility.

And currently, i believe the best definition of sentiance that anyone has come up with is that the entity must possess three different characteristics:

1. Self Awareness.
2. The ability to communicate abstract concepts to other members of its species.
3. The ability to create 3rd generation tools. A first generation tool would simply be using a naturally occuring object to multiply ability, such as a rock to bash things. a second generation tool would modifying a first generation tool to improve effectivness at a task, such as sharpening said rock with another, so that it is more usefull as a knife. A THIRD generation tool is the union of a second generation tool with another object crafted for the purpose of enhancing that tool. To maintain the example, this would be taking the sharpened rock, and using it to cut a small branch off a tree. The branch is bound to the stone to then create an axe. THIS is the thrid generation tool.

The third one is very important, because it is neccisary to bootstrap a fledgling intellegence into a devloping sentiance. 3rd generation tools appear to be the most distinguishing characteristic, because they require thought to make. Many animals use first or even second generation tools, but only mankind has mastered thrid and higher. Once a species reaches third, it can now drive itself forwards, because the same interlectual mechanics required to make a thrid generation tool are the ones that have got us from stone axes to cars, computers and nuclear reactors. It is a fundamentally different thinking proccess required to create and use 1st and 2nd generation tools. This conclusion has been reached after a great deal of study with apes, monkeys, dolphins, and other near sentiant (but not quite) animals.

[Blairyfairy]

Okay there is so another universe or many where there are living creatures im not so sure about extremly intelegent like people like to make them out to be because they would have already made them selves known and im not saying crop circles lol

[Kester]

Wow, Blairy, use some punctuation. I can't even try and work out what you are trying to get across.

[Blairyfairy]

blearg * shakes fist at ur grammerwhoridness!

[rtanger]

No seriously he's right at least try to be coherent, please? For the benefit of everyone?

To Mad Scientist, where you say we "know" much about the universe, I say we "assume" much about the universe. The best we have is educated guesses based on our experience in our world, and what we assume we see. It's a little hard to think outside the box in this case, yah?

[Eddie R Inzauto]

I feel it shouldn't even be a debate. How could there NOT be other life throughout limitless space?

Cuz we damn sure weren't just molded and plopped here.

[BahamutBBob]

To quote Hitchiker's Guide to the Galaxy, space is big.

No matter what the odds are of life forming on a planet the way it did on Earth, there are enough planets out there that it's quite likely that it happened in other places, and probably multiple times. Now, there could be intelligent life only a few galaxies over, or it could be as far away as possible, and we'll still probably never get to meet them unless by some stroke of luck, they're in our galaxy. Which isn't very likely but definitely possible.

And that's about all I know on the subject, so I'm not gonna pretend that I know more :P

[rtanger]

Our galaxy alone is inconceivably big. We're more or less theorizing about the state and condition of planets in our own Solar System. We barely know anything about most of our own moon!

"Very unlikely" or not, it's all relative. No matter what some people want to believe, I think our understanding of the workings of our existence are yet primitive at best, and limited to a narrow scope of understanding.

To say that the possibility of other intelligent life in our galaxy existing being "very unlikely" seems to be quite the geocentric statement to me. Other things that are coined "very unlikely" have a nasty habit of occuring regularly on our own planet, and that's a very finite locale in the scope of the universe.

Nothing is "very unlikely," especially when it comes to this apparently endless universe of ours.

That's what I like to think, anyways.