OpBM, Barney Tales coping BMS work?

[DarkSanta]

I know you guys are mad at OpBM for coping there work, but some things I want to point out.

1) you mostly go after gunner's work

2) you point out such obscure things that noone cares (such as the construction like black/yellow strips)

3) you don't go after Barney tales when its look more like your work
ex.
BMS:
http://moddb.com/images/cache/mods/43/4384/gallery/water_35234.jpg
Barney Tales:
http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k223/tachikomaz/bss/ba_tram_n2.jpg

4) Why you got mad just because the name switched from "Operation: Mesa" to "Operation Black Mesa"

5) I just heard a rumour that JeanPaul was decompiling and making it his own. not sure if 100% true.

soo... why go after OpBM, pointing out obscure things when you don't care about barneys tales, even if it looks even more like you work?

[-58]

I don't know what "Barney's Tales" is, but that second screenshot is similar to the first only insofar as it is an underground tram track.

[Tyorant]

It does look very similar and Devs have already expressed that they are not happy with the blatent copying but "Operation Black Mesa" was accused of literally stealing (copy and pasting) work from the leaked Black Mesa build whereas this is most probably just copying from eye from official media.

[DarkSanta]

wth. how could you guys think this looks the same.
http://img252.imageshack.us/img252/4934/c3a2e00289to.jpg
http://moddb.com/images/cache/mods/68/6885/gallery/water_48532.jpg
but not the Barneys tales screenshots?

and OpBM didn't copy and paste the leak content. you have to really look at it to see the similarities.

[hoboman725]

is the debate here: did OBM steal BM content?

if it is I don't think us forumers can really tell. Firstly because it would take a well trained eye, and probably a knowledge of mapping to tell if two things are copied from each other. and secondly, I believe some of the conflict was that the devs had some thought that OBM work was taken from the stolen Alpha 5 BM leak.

no matter what the debate is, I'm not sure we really want to re-open old wounds...

[Kester]

That is exactly it. While we all agree Black Mesa has taken obvious influence, almost directly copying design choices, I believe Gunner stole our work from the leaked Alpha.

Also the dev team have seen a lot more of our work than the public have seen, therefore when we talk about something that may have been copied we can only show you what has been released, not private work. Also the public tend to look at an image on the whole and not details.

As the lead ld at BM I know our levels inside out, I know the details like the back of my hand. A lot of which I could see direct influences in Gunners work, details that haven't been shown to the public. Gunner also supplied me with a vmf of his work and while, if he has copied our work, he tried to cover his tracks well, however in the room in the picture above (there is some behind the camera as well) I noticed countless likenesses to unreleased work. While a lot of you may think he just chose similar design choices the shear amount made it more than suspicious.

After a while I noticed something about the road in the image supplied. Not only was the scale identical to mine, as well as the ending white line strip at the end, he had inverted one of the texture axis identically to mine. Mine was inverted on the y axis because I needed it to line up correctly around a bend. In the vmf I saw there was no reason for this texture to be inverted, and if Gunner had done this, it would have been for a reason (it's not something that happens by accident, you have to manually change this value). When I quizzed Gunner on this, he went silent for 5 minutes and then came back with a response similar to "I must have done it by accident". That to me sounds like a poor excuse for being caught red handed.

I've also noticed he used the same texture as me to block off unfinished area, a texture I've never known anyone to use, to me that again is more than a coincidence especially considering the circumstances.

Regardless, after all this, the BM dev team decided it wasn't in our interests to pursue things like this and are now leaving it, in the knowledge that mods that rip off other work won't get very far at all.

[DarkSanta]

I know they might be some details that may look like yours, but looking at it, it seems more easier to eye it.

I am not looking at it as a whole picture. I don't get how a few pipes in a garage like setting is a rip off. the black/yellow stripe is a rip off or lambda core, even though it's used in other games (not just source game) many times before.

A texture rarly used? how could you say that, its not like that there are as many mapper as there are e-mailers. If its a costum texture made by you guys, then thats a different story. And I don't know what area you are talking about.

I am interested the inverted texture. could you have a screen shot to show what you mean, you don't have to show your work, you can just use the OpBM SS.

I am not going to download the leaked version just to see what you mean. besides, I think it would be harder the edit the alpha 5 maps then just eyeballing it. I thought alpha 5 is older then those screenshots.

[hot564231]

I'll say this and leave, It's Common sense to make the mod look like Black mesa or you'll have criers saying "make it look more like black mesa LOLOOLOLOO!!!! u n00bz!!!111one"

Gezz live and forget thats what i say

[malfuncti0n]

I will say this and only this, i am not getting involved as this only causes headaches, and thats that, i dont care what is said.

Have a happy thanksgiving and peace out.

[Monoxx]

A piece of my mind:
I think that, the more it looks like BM (wich is now considered as the "base for any HL1 related mods") the better, since it help to tie these remakes together in the same way the original games were.
Now, if the work is completely copied or just stolen, then it is a whole different story. One thing is influence, and another one is robbery.

[Raminator]

A texture rarly used? how could you say that, its not like that there are as many mapper as there are e-mailers. If its a costum texture made by you guys, then thats a different story. And I don't know what area you are talking about.It is a shadertest material that is never used in-game. It would be highly unlikely that anyone who had not had access to Kester's source material would know about it.I am interested the inverted texture. could you have a screen shot to show what you mean, you don't have to show your work, you can just use the OpBM SS.You wouldn't be able to see it in the screenshot, it's changing the scale on one axis from a positive value to a negative one.

[RabidMonkey]

A piece of my mind:
I think that, the more it looks like BM (wich is now considered as the "base for any HL1 related mods") the better, since it help to tie these remakes together in the same way the original games were.
Now, if the work is completely copied or just stolen, then it is a whole different story. One thing is influence, and another one is robbery.

Well said. There's a difference between influence and direct copying; the issue at hand was that OBM was accused of directly copying work whereas the BS levels take more of an influence as stated (I can't identify any details which would scream 'ripped' to me, and if anyone could identify that it would be me).

[Garcian Smith]

This is the way I see it:

- The Barney's Tales screenshot you have provided displays more inspirational design than direct copying. In other words, as opposed to directly pulling the level design from content so far undisclosed to the public, it is simply imitating the 'Inbound' screenshot that has been publically released.

- Considering that Kester is - as he has stated - the lead level designer of Black Mesa, he has complete access to (rather obviously) the raw .vmf files of the modification. He has also seen (in what would appear to be a rather stupid move) Gunner's own .vmf. As a result, Kester has noticed similarities that go beyond imitation, and more towards literal copying of level design.

If any of the above information is untrue or grossly misinterpreted, then feel free to correct me.

[zim]

I will say this and only this, i am not getting involved as this only causes headaches, and thats that, i dont care what is said.

Have a happy thanksgiving and peace out.

Yeah me too. It really dosent matter what is said.

[El]

I can't believe this got a thread in the Debate Hall!
There's nothing to debate, this discussion isn't based on opinions, but admins and mods educating the inexperienced!

Here's everything in a nutshell, and then I believe it's locking time:


The BM Team was upset because they found out that another mod had actually stolen their work, modified it/used bits of it, and posted it online. This doesn't refer to similarities in work, but literally, stolen work. You have to expect it to look similar, after all, they're all based on Half Life!



EDIT: And if I am wrong, please correct me

[Kester]

This is the way I see it:

- The Barney's Tales screenshot you have provided displays more inspirational design than direct copying. In other words, as opposed to directly pulling the level design from content so far undisclosed to the public, it is simply imitating the 'Inbound' screenshot that has been publically released.

- Considering that Kester is - as he has stated - the lead level designer of Black Mesa, he has complete access to (rather obviously) the raw .vmf files of the modification. He has also seen (in what would appear to be a rather stupid move) Gunner's own .vmf. As a result, Kester has noticed similarities that go beyond imitation, and more towards literal copying of level design.

If any of the above information is untrue or grossly misinterpreted, then feel free to correct me.
You hit the nail, slap, bang on the head.

[hot564231]

- Considering that Kester is - as he has stated - the lead level designer of Black Mesa, he has complete access to (rather obviously) the raw .vmf files of the modification. He has also seen (in what would appear to be a rather stupid move) Gunner's own .vmf. As a result, Kester has noticed similarities that go beyond imitation, and more towards literal copying of level design.


Kester asked for the .vmf, gunner gave as he has nothing to hide. :rolleyes:

@Kester: 5mins you say? i find that highly unlikely as if gunner has something to say, then he'll say it and not think about it :dry:

you don't even know gunner and yet you past jugdement on him so hashly :dry:

[DarkSanta]

ok. I am going to shut up now because even if gunner is copying and pasting, this is more a distraction that I shouldn't made.

[Lupus]

I trust Kester's LD abilities enough to believe that if he finds many suspicious things in a map, then there is reason to be suspicious of it.

Gunner gave the .vmf because he thought he had nothing to hide, which may be because he didn't rip anything, or he did but thought he changed enough to remove suspicion. He may well have ripped stuff and forgotten/not noticed things such as the inverted axis, and so volunteered it, thinking he was in the clear.

Or he may have just done all the work himself, I don't know.

But going by Kester's examination, I find it suspicious.

[UnhingedMouse0]

It this shot from BM(s)?

http://img135.imagevenue.com/loc569/th_96526_c3a2e00289to_122_569lo.jpg (http://img135.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=96526_c3a2e00289to_122_569lo.jpg)

Because it looks quite different from this one...

http://img109.imagevenue.com/loc442/th_96415_Bild1_122_442lo.jpg (http://img109.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=96415_Bild1_122_442lo.jpg)

[DarkSanta]

oh. I havn't seen that screenshot. it looks different because one is outdated. I like the glass floor, but the other hut looks better.

which one is the older one?

[natedgreat3]

the second one was made by geronimous, who has left the team. Its been replaced by the first one, which is JeanPauls. The glass floor has since been replaced with a heavy grate B)

[Tyorant]

I don't think it's actually a glass floor, it's grated but the Source engine only allows a short maximum for 3D draw distances of grate textures. (I thought there wasn't even a glass texture there until a Dev corrected me!)
I believe the Lambda core entrance was attempted by two different devs and the first one came out on top IMO.

EDIT: Beaten by Nated, and once again corrected, I swear I was told it was a grate.

[natedgreat3]

haha its been glass and grates and everything in between. I swear the evelator has gone through like 10 revisions. it could have been a grate in that pic though.

[Garcian Smith]

Kester asked for the .vmf, gunner gave as he has nothing to hide. :rolleyes:

@Kester: 5mins you say? i find that highly unlikely as if gunner has something to say, then he'll say it and not think about it :dry:

you don't even know gunner and yet you past jugdement on him so hashly :dry:

I didn't judge Gunner in any way - and you are right, I don't know him. But if you look at what Kester has already stated (that parts of the level design in the O:BM .vmf are too similar to be considered 'inspirational') then it is perfectly understandable that accusations of stealing work would arise.

[Chrille]

Nothing Here!

[ultemate.]

OMG! Valve stealing BMS textures!
http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/1923/ripxr8.jpg

[Raminator]

lmao

Chrille just got zinged off the face of the planet.

[natedgreat3]

Everybody welcome Ultemate, he's a Barneys Tales developer B) I've talked with their team recently and am happy to report there's no evidence they're ripping our work in any way. Whoever said their tram track looks similiar to ours only in the fact that its an underground tram, is right on ;)

As for Operation: Black Mesa, this thread would have been closed instantly if it wasn't a OBM fan that started it. If they don't want any more crap about this, they don't need to keep bringing it up. As such, it'll remain open until it dies.

While it might annoy the mappers, our work being copied isn't what we're after with Operation: Black Mesa. We understand Barneys Tales and OBM's efforts to keep continuity throughout our 3 mods. What we WILL go after is evidence that our content is being ripped.

There isn't anything in Barney's Tales that shows that evidence at this time, and we hope there never will be. There IS evidence in Operation: Black Mesa.

[Tyorant]

That's good news, good luck to Barney's Tales' team!

[Solokiller]

To all non-mapper people reading:
*Basing a map off another map is allowed, as long as you don't just copy everything directly, making it look exactly the same.

*Ripping off stuff from a map is not allowed, since it involves decompiling maps and copying architecture directly from it into your own map, and usually copying entire portions when you're doing that.

So in short: basing off another map is allowed, ripping off another map is not allowed.

[UnhingedMouse0]

I think it would be interesting if the leads from all the teams shared content between all three mods to keep the greatest continuity possible just in things like the tracks for the trams, signs and logos, ect. Small things. This also keeps from having one big team which would be impossible to manage.

I think where sharing would be the most important with BT... but I doubt that will happen now, especially with what happened with OPBM. Although if you did share with BT, Im sure they would give credit where credit is due, rather than just ripping off your guys' work and claiming it as their own like OPBM.


My thoughts here are very un-organised, but it gets my thoughts out. :P

[lubbe]

No chance.

[natedgreat3]

no.. Opposing Force: Source (now dead) asked us to do that.. and we took a serious look at it. But all their work they sent us wasn't even close to Black Mesa quality. It would be a matter of them leeching off our work, basically, as we couldn't use anything of theirs.

We have yet to see a mod that approaches us in quailty (though Barneys Tales is coming along nicely) and even if we do see one, its still unlikely as we've got all our bases covered.

Actually (and I know this doesn't work from a continuity standpoint) we want our take on the Black Mesa facility to be much different (in a much better way) then all the other mods remaking parts of the HL storyline. We won't be showing Xen especially as we want our take on that to stand out from all the other mods.

We are even remaking parts of Inbound, since thats by far the most highly copied section thus far. That way when we release it, ours will stand out.

[Natoksane]

Somebody is being a little haughty today...:haha:

But seriously, I think sharing content would lower each mods ability to stand out. I'm sure each one will have its ups and downs, though by sharing content you're essentially letting each mod be the same thing. Who wants to download 3 mods and say 'ooh! I've seen that before'

Not I.

[ultemate.]

I think that both teams have reached that point of development when everyone in the team knows what to do and all roles are distributed. So therefore there is no necessity for association or sharing content with anyone else.

Also I guess that our mods much different than you think, and simple content exchange can't reform that. I will not be talking about quality or etc.
After all bms team ignores gearbox content (may be this info outdated)... ))

I hope that finally players receive two different, but both good mods to play.

Gl

[natedgreat3]

Somebody is being a little haughty today...

But seriously, I think sharing content would lower each mods ability to stand out.
There you have it. We just want our mod to stand out thats all.. when mods blur together by everyone using everyone elses ideas it becomes unclear which mod thought up what. All we want to do is avoid that.

I don't think I was being haughty haha.. unless you were talking about the part with the quality :haha: That was the reason for our decision not to join forces.. but its ultimately up to you guys to determine whats quality and whats not.

[DarkSanta]

I think you guys would really stand out with the xen levels. if you go by the concept art of xen, then that would make Xen fun. I hated the xen levels, and I am worry what OpBM is going to do with it.

[Chrille]

OMG! Valve stealing BMS textures!


Next time I might wanna check before I try say something smart.

Crap.

Sorry for being offensive/insulting to your mod :(

[your evil twin]

I am very much against the idea of a mod actually physically ripping off stuff from Black Mesa - especially if it using the Alpha leak.

However, I personally have absolutely nothing against mod teams copying the Black Mesa designs from screenshots. One mod is recreating Opposing Force; another is recreating Blue Shift. They are all set in the Black Mesa facility. It is logical to try and make these remakes of the Half-Life games look consistant with each other, so if the Black Mesa team have got a good style and architecture, it is logical to imitate it. Otherwise, Opposing Force Source and Blue Shift Source will look like they are in different facilities to Black Mesa Source.

So, actually physically stealing stuff from Black Mesa = very bad.
Impersonating style = very good!

[Chrille]

Shouldn't they have credit then?

[natedgreat3]

Well thats the dilemna Chrille. If a mod copies us, its somewhat flattering, but it also annoys us because we have people who have done all the work thinking up the style and what works and looks good. A mod that copies us, presumably, has to do much less of that, and they certainly won't give the people on Black Mesa any credit. But its not like we can stop it :)

[Natoksane]

I don't think I was being haughty haha..

I was only joking about you being arrogant, Nate. :)

[natedgreat3]

hence the :haha: in my post