Gearbox material: Official or Unofficial?

[snake-4c-merc]

Since that antlion topic turned into a mini debate, I've posted this thread for everyone to discuss this and keep it out of the other topics.

Personally, I don't really mind if they are official, they were pretty good enemies to fight. The Race X I mean.

Let the debate begin gentlemen.:salute:

[Kester]

Taken from the old thread about it.
Ok, I know not all of you will read this, as it’s long, but I said I would post my argument, so here it is.

Why shouldn’t Gearbox games be classed as 100% part of the HL story line?

I’ll start in general on why expansions should be taken as 100% part of the story line of any game they are expanding on. The first reason is they are usually made by third-party developers. There’s our first clue, Valve didn’t make it. People say Valve wrote the story for the Gearbox games and they’re right, Valve wrote HL, the expansions take that as base and add to it. Therefore yes Marc Laidlaw did write the story Blue Shift and Opposing Force are based on. That doesn’t mean Gearbox didn’t alter it though, as they evidently have.

Secondly of course Valve would say they’re canon, it makes them MONEY! They own the rights to the HL storyline and therefore anytime someone purchases BS or OP4 Valve get royalties.

Next, I’ll make an analogy to illustrate this point, “Gearbox games involve the HL storyline”, I agree, much in the same way my fiancée’s life is very much part of mine it doesn’t mean it is the same life though, just as Valve’s version of the HL story seems rather different from Gearbox’s.

Now, going back to a general point about expansion packs, expansion packs have always been there to add on to a game, picking up a dying hype in the game by adding new weapons and enemies. Generally they don’t involve the storyline very much at all; much is the case with Gearbox’s expansions. OP4 had a totally new race of aliens never seen before or since in any Valve product. If Gearbox’s versions are so canon with Valves don’t you think we may have seen more of them? We haven’t because they aren’t part of Valve’s version of the HL story.

I’m going to argue some points people have made now.

“Gearbox could not have added any new content unless it was approved by Valve, therefor whatever problem you have with the Gearbox games is not Gearbox's fault, it is Valve's fault.”

This generally falls back to my second point, but I’ll expand that a little regarding this point. Approving and accepting as 100% accurate to the storyline are two very different things. Also at the time of these expansions Valve could never imagine that 6 years down the line people would still be questioning every minute detail in HL1. They wouldn’t really mind what Gearbox did, as long as it didn’t totally destroy the HL feel.

“Gearbox Games not canon. Give me hard evidence that Valve does not consider Gearbox Canon. Until Gabe Newell, Marc Laidlaw, or any other higher-up person at Valve officially states that the Gearbox games aren't canon, they are. Sure they contradict themselves every so often, but they do so in a way that most people won't notice.”

That is a poor argument, that’s like saying until someone proves they aren’t a murderer they are. You cannot assume something is just because someone hasn’t proved it isn’t.

“So there's no way Valve would have let Race X pass if they didn't approve of it.”

This relates to a lot of my already raised points.

“I'm not sure what Kester is planning on posting haha.. but if he's suggesting that Opposing Force and Blue Shift aren't official Valve-endorsed HL expansion packs..... then he's incorrect”

I totally agree, but being endorsed and being the same story are different and again it earns Valve more money.

“PCV's. Gearbox named them and gave them abilities, but they were in the origional Half-Life, even before Gearbox was hired to make the expansions.”

Wrong, that’s body armour. Powered Combat Vests were implemented by Gearbox so you’d have a way to boost your armour.

“I find it very interesting that people are taking the stance that OF and BS aren't canon because there's no proof that they are, but don't seem to take into account that there is no proof that they aren't, and that there is clear indication that they are.”

Outstanding argument. Really.

“Barney Calhoun was in BS and without BS why would Barney Calhoun be in Half-Life 2? last time i checked Gearbox expansion packs was made before half-life 2 was finished therefor Blueshift is Canon”

Did you even think about that before you posted it? If Gearbox didn’t create BS then Valve would have used a different last name for Barney. As it is Gearbox created a name for him, one HL2 players would remember and Valve own the rights to BS and OP4 so they can take whatever they like from them, regardless of it they accept them as accurate to the HL story.

“If we follow that reasoning, and if you have played Blue Shift, you would remember guards stating that "Just because Shepherd's team didn't make it, we have to do the crap jobs?"”

That means absolutely nothing. Monsters Inc has Nemo in Boo’s room at the end; it doesn’t mean Finding Nemo is part of the same story as Monsters Inc. It’s an easter egg, simple as.

I could go on, but I’m writing this in word and it’s reaching two pages so I can’t really be bothered carrying on right now...

Quite simply not one of you has shown me any proof that Valve have said these are 100% accurate to the HL storyline.

[Dr.Aaron]

Official I'd say, as it wouldn't be released without Valves premission, and was mostly written by Valve anyway, and gearbox just made it.

[OddFlame 2.0]

Well, there's evidence supporting it and evidence not supporting it. Also, they don't seem to affect Half-Life 2 in any way, so I'd say they're not official.

[DarkFlood]

I would have to say Blue Shift is canon. Now I could bring up the thought of Barney Calhoun, which solidifies the fact that Ble Shift is canon. But as for Opfor, it could go either way.

Personally, I don't think it's our call to say whether or not the expansions are cannon.

Although if the third party HL2 episode that Valve spoke of is made by Gearbox, then we can generally assume that they are canon.

[Dr.Aaron]

To be honest, WHO THE HELL ****ING CARES MAN? It's not like it ruins gameplay or ought, doom has no story and is an excellent game, all this canon crap make me want to blow my brains out... At the time of this post whether it is ''canon'' or not, is entirely YOUR OR MY OPINION. When Valve has done with the Half-Life universe, then we will know the facts...

[DarkFlood]

Luckily Black Op doesn't go to this board, so we don't have to read all of his purism things.

[Darth Ajax]

I'm not going to post another long post about this, so I'll just link to the pevious (Locked) Gearbox debate.

http://forums.gamernode.com/showthread.php?t=5946

Pretty much everything on this topic has been discussed in this older thread. :)

[Delphic]

What the hell does 'canon' actually mean anyway?

(and whatever it means, I'd have thought Blue shift would be, as it doesn't really include anything particularly different to HL, and Op4 to be questionable, but it really was just a HL again but with new enemies and weapons lol lolz!!111)

[-58]

Canon is a term originally used to refer to scripture, but it has been adapted to modern usage to refer to the storyline officially accepted by the creators of the story.

Blue Shift and Opposing Force are canon. Valve has said this; one of the points in the second post says something to the effect of "of course Valve says it's canon, it makes them money"--this is a stupid point. Valve, as creators of the story, has the ultimate say on what is and is not canon, and money-making is of no consequence. As an example, I shall refer you to Halo. The novels are considered canon unless they interfere with something directly shown in the games--this was stated by Bungie employees, and as such is considered "fact" in the Halo universe. If Valve says that Blue Shift and Opposing Force are canon, no matter the reasons, then they are--the argument is non-existent.

[jambo]

They cleared it for release as an official HL title, therefore canon. They even wrote parts of the stories for petes sake!

[Darth Ajax]

Yes, and to those people that say that Race X isn't canon because they're not in any other Half-Life games...

Absence of proof is not proof of absence.

[-58]

They don't appear in the first game because, quite obviously, they only appear after Gordon leaves Earth. Presumably, they don't re-appear in Half Life 2 because there's something tying them up on their end--perhaps they've been inducted into the Combine.

[redgrassbridge]

They are acknowledged by Valve (obviously the deciding force in HL story) to be canon, so they are.

As to the point that Valve would only say that to make money: saying a game is or is not canon really does not affect sales, so they would have no reason to compromise their storyline by announcing them canon when they are not.

[Darth Ajax]

Accually, Race X does appear before Gordon enters the teleport, but only in way too small of numbers to be of any concern.

Again, Gearbox games are canon, if anyone can find a fool-proof way to prove me wrong, then they have achieved the impossible.

Race X: They don't interfere with the story at all. "Well, they weren't in the origonal, so they aren't canon." Wrong. Absence of proof is not proof of absence. I can't see soldiers fighting in Iraq, but I know that they are there. I have no visible proof that the PS3 has launched, but I know it has happened. Same situation, except Gordon doesn't hear anything about them either. Before I went to these forums, I didn't know you guys existed, but you did. And who was the first to name them "Race X" anyway? I don't hear anyone from Gearbox or Valve refering to them as that, other than for the clarification of gamers.

Nuking Black Mesa: "They didn't mention the nuking in HL2 so it never happened." If something happened 20 years ago (Like the Persian Gulf war, for example), and you met an old comrade from that time, and something horrible happened, would you want to refer to it? No, you'd assume they already know it.

New weapons: This is a staple of expansion packs (That's why they're called expansion packs, they expand the game). Again, absence of proof is not proof of absence.

New areas: Gordon never traversed the entirety of Black Mesa, so how do people know what the rest of it looked like? We don't, so no one can say that for cerain.

Adrian in Lambda: Honestly, who looked behind them when they jumped in the origonal Half-Life, before Opposing Force came out? Few of you? THat's what Gordon would have done. Why would Gearbox go into the extra work to make a Human Grunt enter the test chamber just as you were jumping, if you're most likely not going to see it? It would be a waste. Same with Barney in Apprehension. The camera never pans down so we can see in the vents, the only way a person would know about it would be through cheats. Why put in the extra work?

Gearbox is canon people, deal with it.

[RabidMonkey]

Please bear in mind that this discussion will in no way affect development or the team's stance on the Gearbox debacle. We've made our decision and that's final; you're free to discuss it here as you wish as long as it remains within the forum intended for -debate- and it doesn't flow over into the other forums.

[zim]

Official I'd say, as it wouldn't be released without Valves premission, and was mostly written by Valve anyway, and gearbox just made it.

Thats what Ive been saying for months! nobody ever listened. =(

[Mercer]

There is no proof one way or the other... If I see Race X and/or Shepard in a future HL then i'll be convinced. Other than that i couldn't care less...

[-58]

What do you mean, "no proof one way or the other?" The proof is that Valve has said so; it's irrefutable. It's like a mathematician telling you that two plus two equals four, or, perhaps more aptly, an author telling you the name of a previously anonymous character--you can't argue with this person, because they write the story.

[Kester]

I can't help but think none of you have read my post.

[Mercer]

I have...no one else seems to...

[Delphic]

I read it but then I forgot what was said at the start by the time I read the end and so couldn't make an intelligent comment on it.

[DarkFlood]

So, Kester, you're saying that Valve, the ones who wrote the story for the expansions, aren't right in saying whether or not the Gearbox material is canon? It is their story. Whether they make money off of it is irrelevant. Money doesn't matter for the story. The thing is, Gearbox material is canon. Valve said so, and I am more than likely going to believe the makers of the actual story then some forumite or a dev of some mod.

[hoboman725]

I remember the old debate thread on this. From my memory of that, it seems that those who do not approve of Gearbox as Canon needed to look for reasons to exclude it. Frankly I think it's a point of view. Some people accept everything as canon, others only follow the core sources.

I believe it was Mad scientist who originally brought up the thought of primary canon and secondary canon in the old thread.

Meaning that Half-Life is primary canon, and anything in it is absolutely true. an expansion such as opposing force is canon as well, except for places where it conflicts with half-Life. In these instances, Half-Life canon takes priority

I personally follow that to an extreme. for example, In my mind, the 3rd party, completely un-backed by valve mod 'Azure Sheep' is canon, however parts of it which clearly do not fit in to the story I simply ignore.

[DarkFlood]

I feel that we don't have a say in this.. The creators do. So if you want to email Valve and get proven wrong, go ahead.

[TREG]

It's all canon, but it's ultimately irrelevant as only HL1 content will make it into Black Mesa.

[-58]

Which is perfectly fine, as only HL1 material appeared in HL1. That's absolutely right--there is one instance in each Gearbox mod in which the player character encounters Gordon (barring Barney's appearance at the beginning of the first game), and, funnily enough, neither one of those instances involves Gordon seeing anything. There is no action that is noticed by Gordon performed by either Barney Calhoun or Adrien Shepard, or any characters in their story-arc.

Essentially, it makes absolutely no difference whether or not the Black Mesa: Source team thinks the expansion packs are canon or not, because it has no effect on the outcome of their mod.

[amd2800barton]

I support the "assume it is cannon unless it conflicts with 'official' material"

an example of this is minerva - i consider Metastasis to be canon. it takes place in the HL universe according to its independant writer, and it in no way conflicts with HL1/2. Therefore, becasue i consider it entertaining, and supposedly set in the HL universe, i consider it canon.

the same holds true for opposing force and BS. except for their minor inconsistencies, i consider them canon and entertaining games. Unless a Valve official, like Gabe, Doug, or Mark say otherwise concerning these games i assume they are canon.

i liked the point about iraq. i have seen strong evidence that american soldiers are in iraq, however i have never been there and seen it for myself. Unless i see evidence from the horses mouth (i go there and see no US troops) i will assume the truth is that american soldiers are in iraq.

[Darth Ajax]

I also follow the "assume it is cannon unless it conflicts with 'official' material" mantra, but only for the Valve-supported games (the only exception is Codename: Gordon, which, though entertaining, is completely imposible in the HL universe).

There is no real, logical reason for the games not to be canon, and I already replied to Kester's post in the old thread (Previously linked).

[amd2800barton]

yeah, i only follow it for the good one. Like Minerva. Black Mesa will DEFINITELY be canon to me. And minerva is a "featured" mod so that helps out my argument in its favor a bit.

[El]

I would have to say Blue Shift is canon. Now I could bring up the thought of Barney Calhoun, which solidifies the fact that Ble Shift is canon. But as for Opfor, it could go either way.

Personally, I don't think it's our call to say whether or not the expansions are cannon.

Although if the third party HL2 episode that Valve spoke of is made by Gearbox, then we can generally assume that they are canon.
Amen. Blue Shift is definitely canon, but I have a few doubts about Opposing Force

[DarkFlood]

So would you call it canon if Race X and the male Black Ops weren't there?

[Darth Ajax]

Most people would, as they are the main reasons why people don't consider it canon.

Just one more thing about the nuking. Barney Calhoun was out of Black Mesa long before the facility was nuked, and I would guess that Eli and Isaac (Drs. Vance and Kleiner) were too, unless they got out of there on the edge of destruction. So they most likely wouldn't have much knowledge of the nuking, as the government would undoubtedly try to hush it up (As they were doing by nuking the facility in the first place). Therefore, they wouldn't know about the nuking, unless they saw it on the horizon, and if that's the case, they probably forgot about it after twenty or so years.

[amd2800barton]

Or much of the incident was overshadowed by the 7 hour war which followed that nuking and much of the aftermath of the incident is somewhat lumped in with the horrors that the Combine brought.

i don't see why the new enemies/weapons is so horrible. is an EXPANSION pack - meaning its supposed to expand upon the original. some of the placement of race x and such is confusing, however. for example they fight with "normal" xen creatures when they encounter them, so there definately is something different about them. perhaps that is one reason they are considered another race, and not different enemies of the same xen race.

[Kester]

My point is regardless of whether valve say they are canon, you cannot just take that at face value. If valve said these weren't official people wouldn't buy them, losing valve money.

They only way I will believe these are canon is if I see assets made specifically for one of the expansions finding it's way into a valve released episode/game. Barney is not one of these so don't raise that point.

[-58]

That's the dumbest argument I've ever seen.

Listen--Valve's reasons for declaring it canon are irrelevant; they have done so, and therefore it is. Saying it isn't canon when Valve so clearly disagrees is like saying that, because you don't like dwarves, Gimli never appeared in the Lord of the Rings--it's both stupid and wrong.

Oh--and Barney most certainly is something. He wasn't even a character in the original game, and yet they've carried over his voice, appearance, and name into the second game, which stems from a Gearbox-created addition.

[Kester]

No it doesn't. His name is an extension of his HL1 name, valve own the rights anyhow, no point in changing it. His voice doesn't feature in the Gearbox games so that point is null and void and for his appearence, didn't you see him in the original HL? I know I did.

He isn't a gearbox creation.

Also, I don't mean this offensively, but how old are you?

[-58]

Recently sixteen.

I still don't understand how you're arguing against Valve; it's their story, they say what's in and out, and they've said that Gearbox stuff is in. Is it that hard to accept?

[Kester]

Yes, quite frankly. Like I said previously Nic is part of my life, whoever her life isn't my life. Opposing force and Blueshift are part of the HL franchise, that doesn't mean they are 100% canon though.

The reason I asked you age was to see if you had experienced the business world. From your age I guess you haven't. No matter what your field in the business world the aim is to make a cheap buck, valve will never denounce the expansions being part of the franchise as it will loose them money. However the only way I will accept them as being 100% part of the story is if I see someone like Adrian Shepard or race X feature in a Valve release product or a line of voice referencing something that happened specifically in a gearbox product.

[-58]

Valve has said that Adrian might make a reappearance, I believe.

Reasons are irrelevant; Valve has stated it so, and thus it is.

A parallel: I have an extraordinary number of problems with the direction that Bungie is taking the Halo story. I don't like a lot of the stuff from the newest book, and I don't like some things about Halo 3. However, I accept them as Halo canon because they are; Bungie says so, and thus it is, personal feelings notwithstanding.

[Dr.Aaron]

Yes, quite frankly. Like I said previously Nic is part of my life, whoever her life isn't my life. Opposing force and Blueshift are part of the HL franchise, that doesn't mean they are 100% canon though.

The reason I asked you age was to see if you had experienced the business world. From your age I guess you haven't. No matter what your field in the business world the aim is to make a cheap buck, valve will never denounce the expansions being part of the franchise as it will loose them money. However the only way I will accept them as being 100% part of the story is if I see someone like Adrian Shepard or race X feature in a Valve release product or a line of voice referencing something that happened specifically in a gearbox product.
Actually Valve has pretty much made all the money it can from op4 or BS so it dosen't matter whether they say it's canon or not.

[Kester]

Yes, but it'll look bad on them as a company if they now turn tale and say they're not official.

[-58]

No, it won't.

The majority of folk who play those games wouldn't even notice if Valve made a statement. The percentage of people who play games compared to those who play games and pay attention to press releases from the progenitor company is rather skewed; most people who play Half Life have probably never been to Valve's website for anything more than tech support, if that.

There is no economical reason for Valve to accept Gearbox work into canon. It would have negligible, if any, impact on profits.

[hoboman725]

well, in the present day that is probably true. However if back whenever they were rel;eased valve stated that: "Hey we've got two great expansions coming out, but their not actually part of the story" sales definitely would have suffered.

[Kester]

And -58 steam updates with valve news every week.

[Darth Ajax]

Yes, however, Valve has stated that the Gearbox games ARE canon. Why say they are when they are not? They want to make money? Bull****. It is Valve's work, Valve oversaw the projects, Marc Laidlaw wrote the story for Opposing Force, the same voices were used in both expansions (Yes, they were), and Valve has no reason to claim they are canon if they are not.

As for Barney Calhoun not being relevant, again, bull****. Valve changed Dr. Kleiner's name (Valve-created) from Alex to Isaac between games, so why couldn't they do that for Barney? Because they didn't feel like it, or because they intended Blue Shift to be canon? The second is far more likely. As for Barney Calhoun not being a Gearbox creation, that is true to some extent. The Calhoun character itself is, in fact, Gearbox-created, but the first name and the voice are created by Valve, Gearbox merely used Barney's first name (And he was only identified as B. Calhoun, he could have been Bob Calhoun for all we knoe, but Valve decided to use Barney, a reference to the origonal model name for the security guards).

There is no logical reason for the Gearbox games not to be canon. We've already exausted any potential in-universe inconsistency, and now we're on to economics. If you are that desperate to find a reason why the games aren't canon, then it is obvious you are wrong. Come up with any reason why the games could not be considered canon and I will debunk it.

Valve has stated many times that the Gearbox games are canon. If you really need proof, go ask them. Interrogate them, find out the answer. I won't be surprised when they don't change their view.

Gearbox games are canon people, just because you don't like them doesn't mean they didn't happen. Get over it.

[-58]

Also, as another note: As many news updates as Valve makes, how many of them relate to the story of the game? Have they ever released a Steam update even mentioning the validity of the Gearbox games? I doubt it; that's not what the update is for, it's for informing gamers about new Valve and third-party Source-related releases.

There is no argument here--none at all. Gearbox packs are canon, no ifs, ands, buts, or otherwise. No "they're canon from this point of view but not that one"--they simply are.

[El]

Dr. Kleiner's name (Valve-created) from Alex to Isaac
Really? I didn't know that!

Now explain Race X.

[Kester]

Come up with any reason why the games could not be considered canon and I will debunk it.
Likewise the other way.

Gearbox games are canon people, just because you don't like them doesn't mean they didn't happen. Get over it.
I actually did like both the games, so that point is void.

[-58]

Likewise the other way.

Um, Ok, bow about "Valve said so"? That seems like a fair bit of irrefutable proof; I'd love to see you debunk it.

[Darth Ajax]

"They'll say it's canon because it makes them money"

That's Kester's counterpoint.

I actually did like both the games, so that point is void.
That was a general "you," not a specific "you."

[-58]

I know that's his counterpoint, and we've already debunked it; money doesn't come into the equation.

[Kester]

Says who?

[Darth Ajax]

When someone creates a story, they really don't care about the money. It's just a bonus. What they enjoy is people enjoying the story they gave them. Now, yes, they are in it to make a profit, but they would rather see people enjoying their game.

When someone makes a story like that, again, they don't care about the money. When they pay someone else to make an addition, they make damn sure that the new people stay inside the already established story so that they are canon.

Money doesn't enter into it because Valve created a story and they do care more about the story than about the money. The money is a needed bonus.

As for Race X, I'll make another post on it later, when I have time.

[Delphic]

Sweeping Generalisation: Money is the (sometimes indirect) reason for just about everything.
Saying it's not an issue, especially when concerning yourself with something as trivial as expansion packs 'canon-ness' when them being said to be canon makes more money for everyone in involved, is rather silly.

[Darth Ajax]

I didn't say it wasn't an issue, I said that it wasn't much of an issue. Also, some people are goney-grubbing people who will step all over their fans to make a quick buck. *COUGH*George Lucas*COUGH*

[nathster]

True, You've gotta admit the Star Wars franchise has got around a million books, graphic novels etc. There is so many third-party products for Star Wars you can get to know even how Bantha meat is made and where the material for the Death Star came from :P

But back to the topic at hand.
I do agree that Gearbox material should be official, but alas there are a few things that don't make sense to me..

Gonome - A zombie that has been active for over a couple of hours is a big hefty Benemoth ready to tear your limbs off!

only problem I find with that is, how come Ravenholm or anywhere in City 17 in Half-life 2 didn't have these, cause if the Zombification progress according to Gearbox was 100% fool-proof we would have gonomes popping out of the woodwork!..

So I say there is a few holes and loops in Gearbox content.

[natedgreat3]

I personally think Gearbox content is official. But here are some quotes from the big man Laidlaw himself that might keep things clear:

It was a deliberate decision to have Gearbox never call him Barney in Blue Shift, only Calhoun. Raising the Bar is not a game, so material is presented differently there; manifestations differ in every medium. Gearbox took our Barney and did their own best version, but I'm not sure that Barney is the same Barney I'm picturing when I picture Valve's Barney. In the time BS was created, there were many Barneys. Only gradually have the redundant creature and character types slowly settled into iconic individuals...it's an ongoing process.

Gearbox did what was right for their games. Even though they had feedback and guidance from us, they didn't always listen to it, and they steered by their own lights, etc., etc. I wasn't very close to the creation of the expansion packs, and much more concerned with how to move the story forward and open up the universe; so I only take the games created by Valve into consideration when I am working on the story...there are more than enough potential contradictions in our own designs without me worrying about contradictions in the inventions of other developers who were not part of our initial creative meetings.

The whole issue of canon is something the fans came up with. I guess you will be able to identify as canon those story elements we continue to build on and develop and mention repeatedly as the story progresses. Others might fall by the wayside once they've served their purpose. Couldn't you say the same of us all?

RaceX was purely a Gearbox creation that doesn't figure at all in my thinking about the world. Understand, they wanted to come up with a set of creatures that would create gameplay they knew how to make. They could have been making an original title or an add-on for some other franchise, and plugged RaceX into that--the reason being that they had gameplay they wanted to explore and needed the freedom of their own race of critters to conduct those experiments with.

The waters are murky, unfortunately, when it comes to the Gearbox titles because we did not make them and I don't feel compelled to abide by every story idea they came up with to make their game more fun.

Marc seems to basically not care *too* much about making every single element of the story fit, even within Valve's own games. He's contradicted himself at times and then shrugged it off. And clearly, he doesn't care all that much about Gearbox titles.

/Marc's 2 cents

EDIT: We've taken a very similar stance in creating Black Mesa. While not stating Gearbox titles AREN'T canon (like I said I personally think they are) but we won't allow ourselves to be constricted by certain story elements or enemies they came up with to make their game more fun.

[Kester]

Nate, every single one of those quotes back up my arguments, especially about the story of them not being written by Valve, and valve not having control of the way the games went.

[your evil twin]

If the BM team is taking the same attitude as Valve - not being constricted by continuity issues - then in fact that's an argument in favour of including Gearbox stuff. Of course, that opinion only works if you're someone that enjoys the stuff that Gearbox added and thinks it would be worth adding. I'm a Gearbox fan but I wouldn't want to see lots of stuff being added to Half-Life, simply because Half-Life and Opposing Force are already consistant in all the ways that matter.

As for the canon issue:

Marc saying he didn't pay attention to Gearbox stuff when doing HL2 doesn't matter, cause the sequels in many film franchises often ignore stuff from previous films, and yet they are all canon. The writer/director might decide to include lots of references to all the previous films, or they might just only refer to stuff that happened in the first. As long as events don't contradict the main plots of the other sequals (eg dead characters suddenly back to life!), it doesn't matter.

Valve HAVE said that the expansions allow the player to see the events at the Black Mesa facility from another perspective and learn new stuff about the disaster. They said that quite recently, when someone asked whether Opposing Force was "official" or not.

Even if Valve only said Gearbox stuff is canon for money reasons, that doesn't matter, they've said it is canon. It has the Half-Life name stamped on it. Loads of people hated the new trilogy of Star Wars films that George Lucas did, saying it was just a commerical excercise. (Episode One Pod Race: done for sake of tie-in computer game. Stupid Jar-Jar Binks character: done to sell merchandise to very small children that like that sort of nonsense.) But that doesn't stop the new Star Wars films from being canon.

Yes, Valve might only say that Gearbox stuff is canon for financial reasons. Erm... yeah, computer game companies like to make money.Money would also be one of the motivations for making Half-Life in the first place. So, Valve saying Gearbox is canon just for money is a perfectly legitimate reason.

Also, in an interview, Gabe Newell was asked about any chance of Gearbox stuff appearing in future HL2 games, and Gabe cryptically said "Don't worry, we haven't forgotten about Adrian Shephard. I like Adrian too."

I certainly don't want to see Race X in Black Mesa (they were cool, but that would be severaly changing stuff), but I wouldn't mind seeing Gonomes by Forget About Freeman and Lambda Core. I'm not arguing in favour of it either, as I know that would be very contrversial.

The one thing I'd personally love to see - but won't mind if I don't - is Opposing Force-style male assassins making at attack in Lambda Core... mainly cause the player never gets to use the ultimate weapon, the Gluon Gun, against any human enemies. A human grunt attack would not make sense since the grunts are supposed to be pulling out, so this means that assassins are the only option (especially since the player actually has an encounter with female assassins at the start of Lambda Core). I think it would be cooler to vaporise some human-grunt-style enemies rather than ninja women, hence male assassins being somewhat appropriate. And unlike new species of alien creature, male assassins aren't actually an addition to the HL story - Valve did female assassins because they were cool, not because the government is supposed to have an all-female assassination organisation.

Of course, the main thing against the male assassin suggestion is that this mod isn't supposed to feature any new enemies.

Explanation of Gonomes and Race X in Opposing Force, for those interested:

Half-Life 1 didn't have poison or fast zombies - Valve introduced them without any explanation. Gearbox introduced Gonomes in Opposing Force - without any explanation. Valve and Gearbox did the exact same thing.

Marc Laidlaw, the HL/HL2 writer, when quizzed about the new zombie/headcrab types, said that he didn't know (the writer doesn't know? They thought that gameplay addition through!), but said that they probably evolved somehow. He said that maybe poison headcrabs came about after a headcrab attacked some poisonous animal, and headcrabs are extremely adaptable and evolve very quickly, so it incoporated this animal's trait.

If we accept Marc's explanation for the poison and fast headcrabs - headcrabs/zombies adapt and evolve and mutate very quickly in a new environment - then that easily explains Gonomes as well. Since Opposing Force took place on Day 2 and Day 3 of the disaster, we can safely assume that no Gonomes exisisted on Day 1. Over the course of the first day at Black Mesa, some zombies evolved into a different type, the Gonome. Black Mesa was full of both bizarre chemicals and high levels of radiation... this might have encouraged some bizarre mutations. When Black Mesa got nuked, that breed of zombie got wiped out.

Race X certainly causes no story contradictions. They are just another group of aliens that invaded Black Mesa, after the dimensional rift caught their attention. (Since Xen is supposed to be a sort of nexus between many different universes, the dimensional rift would have caught the attention of any advanced race with teleportation abilities.) The failed in their attempt to establish a foothold at Black Mesa (the geneworm was a living teleportation machine - if it had become fully mobile, it could have deployed armies anywhere). Then Black Mesa got nuked. A radioactive crater is not an appealing place to start your invasion. Of course, the dimensional rift may have expanded/moved around (portal storms) so perhaps Race X could have had the opportunity to invade Earth at another location, but before that could happen then Combine invaded Earth, so Earth would not have been a very attractive prospect for continued invasion attempts.

[natedgreat3]

@Kester: thats my debating style.. I look at all viewpoints and even present quotes that detract from my own view, stupid as that may sound lol. I believe thats the way it should be, look at all views, decide from all views.

Now as to my view, and those quotes. Marc basically stated what I already pointed out, he's not *too* concerned with what Gearbox thought up, or with keeping all their story ties together. He seems to feel this way about the whole story actually, even the original HL (hence multiple headcrab varities in HL2 but not in HL, and his "meh.. whatever" explanation for it).

I didn't read anything where he said the games aren't canon or him saying he was going to deliberately contradict the story. Rather, he said he didn't feel the need to EXPOUND on the story. Race X could never ever appear again in the HL series. If so, that was a story tie that served its purpose for the one game it was in. That doesn't mean its not canon. It just means Marc didn't see the need to flesh it out anymore. I think if you'll look at the quotes, you'll see that underlying element in all of them.

[Vincent]

There are a few different universes: One where nothing is canon, one where only BS is canon, ...

solved :P

[-58]

It doesn't matter how loose they are about including material from the Gearbox games; what matters is that Valve have said, quite clearly and irrefutably, that Gearbox games are canon. I still do not see how anyone can argue with that.

[Dresarius]

Regardless of whether or not gearbox made canonical expansions for the half-life series, their games were fun. It's always been the opinion of my circle of half-life friends that although the gameplay in opfor is less balanced, mostly due to how powerful some of the weapons are, that it's more fun. It introduces a bit more diversity than the standard run'n gun that we had with half life.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to knock HL, it's probably one of my favorite games ever, but opfor expanded and diversified the gameplay significantly, even if it's not 'canon' i'd be overjoyed to see a source opfor done to the quality of the Black Mesa Mod.

[Darth Ajax]

Well, I can't seem to find it, but here's an interesting sentiment.

Kester says Valve is saying that Op4 and Blue Shift are canon because they make them money. Well, Half-Life was origonally created to make money, so where's the argument?

Valve could say that Half-Life 2 is canon because it makes them money, when it might not be, according to Kester's viewpoint.

If you say that a game is canon, it is, no questions asked. Plotholes exist, they always have existed, they always will exist, and no story is exampt from them, not even Half-Life.

There is no way people can say they are not canon when Valve says they are not canon.

Valve could say that Half-Life 2 Episode 1 is not canon, and people will still buy it. Why? It's a Half-Life game. There is no real reason not to but a game because it is not canon. To do so is to be far too nerdy for the general populace. You but a game for the game and the story, not its relevance.

If Valve had stated that the Gearbox games were not canon, they would have lost very few profits, because it is a Half-Life game. If it wasn't part of the Half-Life canon, why make it? (Kester, don't say that it was for money, because that was the driving force behind the original Half-Life, too.)

[jackattack502]

you use canon too much

anyway, gearbox games should be considered part ofthe story (or canon or whatever) Its just that half life was made before, and some gameplay elements had to deviate from hl1, such as the infamous barney with and without armor and guns.

[Darth Ajax]

Yes, and why change a game for a minor deviation? Why make a brand-new model and replace the old one in HL1 so that Barney doesn't have his flashlight or his armor? Why re-script the entire Lambda teleport so that an HECU could walk in as you were teleporting out, when almost every time people jumped, they jumped facing the teleport? It doesn't make sense to go into that much work just to add in a little detail that most people won't notice anyway.

As for me using canon too much, repitition is the key, repeat things enough and it burns through people's skulls. ;)

[Kester]

Sounds like a sign you are loosing an argument to me. But each to their own =]

[-58]

But we can't lose this argument, as there's nothing to argue. Valve's settled it.

[Kester]

Only in your opinion. Myself and others hold another opinion. Without being an employee of Valve you cannot know for sure.

[Solokiller]

I guess we'll have to wait for episode 2 and see from there what canon is and what canon is not (Race X may be the ancestors of the antlions, plot twist anyone?).

[Vincent]

Looks like the best to me

[-58]

I don't see where you're coming from. It doesn't matter that none of us are employed by Valve; what matters is that Valve has said what's bloody-well canon and what bloody-well isn't, and that should be that.

[Dr.Aaron]

Aye it's like one of the dev team saying ''K like we're gonna have this garg loader fight''
And everyone saying ''OH NO YOU DON'T!'' even though it's been announced and nothing will change Raminator's mind. :)

[El]

He seems to feel this way about the whole story actually, even the original HL (hence multiple headcrab varities in HL2 but not in HL, and his "meh.. whatever" explanation for it).

He seems to be a little lazy, eh?

[Darth Ajax]

Alright.

Valve said they were canon. There is no arguing that.

If you say that they say Opposing Force and Blue shift are part of the story because it makes them money, well then, they made Half-Life 1 to make money. Money is not the issue here, Kester, as the games were intended to make money, not lose it. Saying that Valve only said the Gearbox games happened because it makes them money is not a valid argument, as the origonal was made to make money, therefore your argument is useless.

As for my saying "canon" a lot being a sign that I'm losing the argument, I don't see how you can make that connection. I don't want to waste my time finding synonims for it to make it sound varied, as I don't have a lot of time on the 'puter at the moment. Also, isn't that what we are debating here? The Gearbox game's canon-ness? I think you are grasping at anything that makes is sound like you are winning, when you are not. You lost your only real argument.

If you think about it, this really is a matter of opinions, and strong opinions don't change.

[-58]

Much as I hate to disagree with you when you're on my side . . . .

This isn't a matter of opinions at all. It's a matter of what Valve said pertaining to the story that they own the rights to, which the opinion of anyone who doesn't have direct control over cannot alter.

[Kester]

Including you, you cannot know for certain that Valve are being 100% truthful when they speak about the expansions and for that very reason you have no proof that the games are infact canon.

And Darth Ajax, you may have noticed that I had a '=]' after, and was in reference to you saying "As for me using canon too much, repitition is the key, repeat things enough and it burns through people's skulls." which was also in a lighthearted tone.

The point is, we both hold valid strong opinions, neither of us is about to sway the other from that opinion.

Although I will say I enjoyed both expansions, I still don't believe they are canon.

[-58]

We have proof! Valve has said it! There's nothing shady about it that requires investigating; no further proof need be searched for! The creators of the story have declared it true; thus, in a completely irrevocable way, it is!

[Kester]

Firstly, show me where they declare this true. Secondly, that is secondary evidence, it doesn't hold 100% credibility.

What someone leads you to believe and what they believe are not always the same thing. Argue all you like, but if you disagree with that you are wrong.

[Vincent]

One day, we will know...

[-58]

The hell, it's secondary. This is the writer of the story - a one hundred per cent primary indisputable source.

You've already admitted that Valve has said it's canon; there's no need to search for where they've said it, since we're all in agreement there.

[Kester]

You are talking crap right now. You have ignored almost everything I have posted previously to this.

Marc Laidlaw has actually said he isn't too concerned with the expansions and Gearbox took them in a direction that he hadn't intended. He also said he didn't do much in the way of writing the final stories of the expansions as gearbox had changed them to see fit for their ideas.

RaceX was a gearbox addition that Laidlaw has said isn't part of the HL story but in fact an NPC that gearbox would have put in any game, be it Opposing Force or some other title, that says hell of a lot about how canon it is if you ask me.

Again, I'll reiterate, what someone leads you to believe (even if they tell you it's true), isn't always what they believe.

Also, it's secondary, primary is where you experience it, anything else is secondary.

[-58]

No. Primary means directly from the source - in this case, the writers of the story.

Anyway; we did experience if first-hand, when we played two expansions with "Valve" printed on the front cover.

As lax as Valve has declared themselves, they have said that Gearbox material is canon.

I'm ignoring most of what you're saying because it's a very large load of bullcrap. Valve said it's canon; that's all that matters in this situation.

[natedgreat3]

*fans flames away from face*

Basically here's what this comes down to ladies. Kester seems to be the only person in here holding this particular view, much as I do in the Bible infallible thread.

When you hold a view thats different then the majority, firstly you never put the "burden of proof" on the majority. That is, you never say "you thousands of people that believe Gearbox is canon need to prove to me its not." This is a defensive tactic that basically seals you up like a turtle and makes your view impossible to debate. Doesn't make for good debating material, it just starts flames.

Let me show you:

Valve hasn't explicitly stated the Gearbox material is canon. Nor have they explicitly stated it isn't. There's no doubt, however, that the Gearbox expansion packs ARE an official Valve product, and also an official expansion to Half Life and the Half Life universe. I don't think anyone can dispute this, its got a Valve logo on the box, and Gearbox was commissioned to make it under Valve's supervision.

The fact that it is an official Valve product is a STRONG implication that the Gearbox content is canon, by reason of plain common sense. Which is the biggest thing that Kester is denying here. IN SPITE of being an official Valve product, IN SPITE of there being no contradictions in the series that can't be explained away, and IN SPITE of them even tying Barney into HL2 (this is debatable on technicalities, but's held as common knowledge.) But IN SPITE of all this, its still not canon. And he wants us to prove otherwise.

Quite simply, that can't be done :P He's even said that even if Valve came right out and said "Gearbox material is canon" he still wouldn't believe it because they could be saying it just to make more money. In fact, he's said the ONLY THING that'll convince him otherwise is if Valve uses a plot element from Gearbox directly in one of their future games.

Therefore, since no one can predict if this is gonna happen, his position is undebatable. Its no use guys.. no matter how much you debate, you can't win on his terms. Neither can he. This topic, as far as his view goes, might as well be closed.

[Mad Scientist]

Nate has pointed out an interesting point, to do with an area of philosophical belief called "logical positivism". Logical positivism is largly based on one of the fundamental principles of scientific method, known as the "falsification prinicple". The falsification principle asks the question "what would we need to know in order to prove theory X as incorrect?". For example, suppose i had a theory that the labs in our department are kept clean by the use of oompa loompas. In order to test this theory, i would simply need to observe the lab while it is cleaned and ascertain the presence of oompa loompas if they where there. The theory can be proved wrong by witnessing that the labs are not cleaned by oompa loompas. Therefore the theory is falsifiable, and is therfore testable.

In kester's case he has added the numerable qualifiers that any evidense that his theory is incorrect (character inclusion, valve validification) is not admissable as evidense. Hence his theory is not falsifiable, and therefore cannot be tested.

In other words, i as the question to kester, what would you accept as proof that gearbox content is classed as cannon. Is there any unqualifiable proof that is acceptable, without modification (such as "if valve included gearbox conent in their own work except for barny's last name")?