Australia Senate Lifts Ban on Cloning

[jambo]

Australia's Senate narrowly voted to end the country's four-year ban on cloning human embryos for stem cell research, ruling Tuesday that the potential for medical breakthroughs outweighed moral doubts.

The decision - a rare conscience vote in a country where lawmakers are expected to follow the party line - sets the stage for the ban to be lifted entirely. The measure now goes to Australia's House of Representatives, but lawmakers had expected the Senate to pose the biggest hurdle.

The Senate voted 34 to 32 to allow therapeutic cloning, which involves removing the nucleus of an unfertilized human egg and adding DNA to make it grow in a lab dish.

Opponents warned that the technology could be abused and lead to human cloning and the creation of animal-human hybrids.

"Experiments which subject the zygote, or embryo, to any significant risk are the ethical equivalent of the infamous medical experiments that we're inflicted on the unwilling and uninformed victims in Nazi death camps," Chapman said.

About time! I think it's great that they have lifted the ban, should help a LOT with disease research.

[marrow]

as long as we don't get an army of Jambos- that would be a few too many twisted perverts to cope with. No offence meant, merely an observation.:P

[jambo]

LOL ROFL OMG!! Someone on another forum (where i posted the news) said the EXACT SAME THING haha!

[Ares]

Why the United States doesn't realize just how many miracle medicines that could be gained from Theraputic Cloning and Stem Cell Research beats me. I guess if I get any chronic terminal illness it was God's will, time to curl up into a ball and wait until he decides its time to zap me. Who knew you could thwart an omnipotent and omnipresent being simply by curing a human of their illness?

You have to kill embryos for the research, true, but think of how many people that could be saved! Think of the freedoms that people could get back once the illness is cured!

But no, George W. Bush Evangelical Morality strikes again, a single embryo's "life" lost during research is unnacceptable... yet a 5 year old Iraqi girl that gets turned into a wall's new coat of red paint by a carbomb in Baghdad or a fiancee/uncle/father/son shipped back home from Iraq in a bodybag with a US flag draped over it are both considered "acceptable losses" which are necessary for the Middle East to become "free".

I'm glad though that at least the rest of the world sees what can come from medical research such as this.

[Raminator]

Excellent news.

[hot564231]

The uk clone a sheep.... [/kids voice]

[DarkFlood]

Then if I get a disease that can be cured with stem cells, I'll just move to Australia!

[jambo]

Why not just move here now, I've got a double bed ;)

[Ares]

^I'll bring along a chainsaw and we can turn that into two singles quite easily... :P

[P-Thunder.]

You whore you.

Yeah, didnt the UK clone a sheep called dolly?

[Kaze]

Why the United States doesn't realize just how many miracle medicines that could be gained from Theraputic Cloning and Stem Cell Research beats me. I guess if I get any chronic terminal illness it was God's will, time to curl up into a ball and wait until he decides its time to zap me. Who knew you could thwart an omnipotent and omnipresent being simply by curing a human of their illness?

You have to kill embryos for the research, true, but think of how many people that could be saved! Think of the freedoms that people could get back once the illness is cured!

But no, George W. Bush Evangelical Morality strikes again, a single embryo's "life" lost during research is unnacceptable... yet a 5 year old Iraqi girl that gets turned into a wall's new coat of red paint by a carbomb in Baghdad or a fiancee/uncle/father/son shipped back home from Iraq in a bodybag with a US flag draped over it are both considered "acceptable losses" which are necessary for the Middle East to become "free".

I'm glad though that at least the rest of the world sees what can come from medical research such as this.

Extreme short-sightedness: people who insist that the current American President - or indeed, any American president - is to blame for all the ills of the world. These people insist on cutting down a single tree, whilst oblivious to the utter forest of dead wood surrounding them.

:rolleyes:

[Collision]

Been waiting for this to happen for ages.

[Flarty]

You whore you.

Yeah, didnt the UK clone a sheep called dolly?

no it was exposed, it was shaun the sheep from wallace and grommit, and another sheep,

[Ares]

@ Kaze: I'm not blaming him for every problem in the world, I'm blaming him for failing to recognise that the benefits of programs such as this greatly outweigh the problems.

I'm also blaming him for claiming this was out of "respect for life" when he'll easily send any US Soldier to his death for the freedom of a country we don't really care about.

[P-Thunder.]

I hated Shaun, i always wanted the dog to kill it.

[Flarty]

the robotic dog ? his name was preston, or do u mean gromit?

[P-Thunder.]

ahhh thats it, preston. He was like the terminator, but better!

[Flarty]

yeah terminator wouldnt have a fu<king chance against preston the old lad. :P

[jambo]

Can we get back to the topic of me cloning an army of jambos to take over the world as we know it?

[stickittotheman]

Yay Austrailia!

I might move there when I graduate, Austrailia is hot.

[jambo]

I prefer Australia to Austrailia :P

[Ares]

Yay Austrailia!

I might move there when I graduate, Austrailia is hot.

All Black Mesa forumites must make the pilgrimage to the holy land of moustache-avatars once in their lifetime... some find they are so attached to the land, that they have no choice other than to stay for eternity.

[Collision]

Can we get back to the topic of me cloning an army of jambos to take over the world as we know it?

Oh god, each and everyone of them would have their own James Bond briefcase :ohmy:

[Ares]

^You buy briefcase, yes?

[Collision]

Now repeat that a million times.

[jambo]

Haha, that would be agreat comic :P

[Kaze]

God it's tempting to copy and paste that 10x....

[jambo]

I edited the post, cause i would probably get hit with the bantz stick by Kester and he klaymore would steal all my megahurtz :(

[Ares]

^Sorry man, according to Microsoft Word, that's 3,744 Words, divided by 5 words in a phrase, you've got just shy of 749 times. only 999,251 more times to go!

(Now let's see how long before a moderator locsk the thread due to the spammage...)

[jambo]

Ok, so how do people think this is gonna effect disease research?

[stickittotheman]

I prefer Australia to Austrailia :P
stfu! :lol:

All the more reason to move there, I can't even spell it right. It's one of those days... you know.

[zim]

Yay cloning! Finnaly I can have enough brothers for a football team!

[jambo]

Clone Leauge 2007 Grand Final: The zim's vs the jambo's :D

[Ares]

Seriously: I could possibly forsee having extra organs and limbs grown from a single cell, completely made for you. This would probably take away the need for the immune system surpressing drugs that so many people need after transplants, since the organs you would be getting would, in fact, be yours.

Jokingly: I think we can all look forward to seeing an army of Ares' Holy Space Marines sweep across Terra, uniting the planet once and for all!

[Collision]

I can see it now, real life lemmings.


Loved that game.

[Kester]

You do realise lemmings already exist?

http://www.bio.tu-darmstadt.de/zoology/koch/lemming.jpg

[Collision]

Smart ass.

[DKR1138]

lennywinks, lennywinks...

[Mad Scientist]

Barriers to research being broken down is always exccellent news!

It is true that dolly the sheep was cloned in the UK some time ago. However, there are many problems with the associated cloning techniques so far.

1. High failure rate. Very few of the embryos cloned by this method are actually viable. It has been said that dolly was a stroke of luck in that the egg was viable, and this is very true.

2. Premature aging problems. Currently creatures that have been cloned have a tendancy to display many of the signs of aging far earlier in thier lifespan than usual. I gather that Dolly, has rather bad arthritus for a sheep so young. This is often atributed due to the fact that the initial DNA sample is taken from a mature subject, however this claim is unsubstantiated.

For this reason, there are a number of significant hurdles to be overcome before cloned organ transplants become viable. However, there is no reason why such techniques could not be perfected in the long run.

[Ares]

^Mad, would you consider it realistic to create a cell and then tell it to grow into only the organ or body part you command it to, rather than make an entire human entity and then slice and dice from that?

[amd2800barton]

i would not consider it viable right now, however in the not so distant future, this may be possible. i think what people often oppose in this though is a scenario like the movie the island, where sentient human beings have their bodies "cannibalized" for parts (organs)

[marrow]

borrowed that DVD last week, but it doesn't flpping work. Gosh- darn pirate discs.

"why are pirates called pirates?
'cos they aaarrgh!"
Faz 2006

[Mad Scientist]

^Mad, would you consider it realistic to create a cell and then tell it to grow into only the organ or body part you command it to, rather than make an entire human entity and then slice and dice from that?

Theres nothing to make it technically impossible, however it may be some time before we can viably do this. I would estimate some time in the next 20-60 years we may see the first cloned transplanted organ. The time interval is so large becuase most technological predictions are notoriously inaccurate.

[amd2800barton]

yay! Mad Sci agreed with me! (although he elaborated)

[Mercer]

I knew some first-world courtry would eventually legalize it, only a matter of time...

if it hasn't happened even before now...

it's ironic that every day embryos die from being dumped out of storage and such...it really doesn't matter

[Flarty]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=413551&in_page_id=1770&ico=Homepage&icl=TabModule&icc=NEWS&ct=5

already growing organs from stem cells apparently.

i find this more intresting anyway http://www.physorg.com/news81006721.html

us brits have allways had the best scientists :P

[tigger]

I read somewhere that they made a fish eye by bombarding some everyday normal cells (like from a leg or something) with radiation and it mutated.
but that has nothing to do with anything.

I've been waiting for this to happen, stuff like stem cell research only has one reason against it, and thats the whole thing about it being human life, however that argument is basically null because embryos and stuff are thrown out all the time. (plus i hate babies anyway :p)

[amd2800barton]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=413551&in_page_id=1770&ico=Homepage&icl=TabModule&icc=NEWS&ct=5

already growing organs from stem cells apparently.

i find this more intresting anyway http://www.physorg.com/news81006721.html

us brits have allways had the best scientists :P

bah.

manhattan project = usa
hydrogen bomb = usa
man on moon = usa

:dry:

huh. all our stuff seems usless and trivial. Nukes and a man on a wasteland satellite. Well, our scientists have done a lot of good for the world :lol:

[Flarty]

well done for creating the possible means to destroy our planet, with the manhatten project and hydrogen bombs,
and well done for utilising nazi research and going to a rock where no one can live, just to tell us theres a flag up there.

i think we will keep producing things that really benefit man kind ;)


EDIT: i forgot you invented velcro :P

[bluseychris]

:rolleyes:

He used his veto to block the vote = it's litrally his decision = it is his fault in that instance.

[Ares]

well done for creating the possible means to destroy our planet, with the manhatten project and hydrogen bombs,
and well done for utilising nazi research and going to a rock where no one can live, just to tell us theres a flag up there.

i think we will keep producing things that really benefit man kind ;)


EDIT: i forgot you invented velcro :P

Hey, when it comes to new and improved ways to kill people or achieve something that ultimately has no effect on people, look no further than America!

Although many of the military and space technologies that we develop water down and find ways for civilians to be used. I.E., the glass that Astronauts' visors are made from may soon replace the wire mesh in fencing masks for facial protection. There are already masks that do this for the eyes, but soon it might be the whole face.

[Collision]

manhattan project = usa
hydrogen bomb = usa


In a way, they are both the same thing as they are both atom bombs, one just being inspired by Robert Oppehiemer's original 2 not designed by him.

[Ares]

Actually, the Hydrogen bomb was a somewhat significant leap forward.

Wereas the previous bombs only used fission, Hydrogen bombs use Fusion instead, create a much larger amount of distruction, and (slightly) less radiation.

[Flarty]

Oh Joy

[Raminator]

Actually, the Hydrogen bomb was a somewhat significant leap forward.

Wereas the previous bombs only used fission, Hydrogen bombs use Fusion instead, create a much larger amount of distruction, and (slightly) less radiation.If I recall correctly, all modern thermonuclear weapons rely on a primary fission explosion to achieve the temperatures and pressures required for the fusion reaction.

[Flarty]

so what? they are still pretty ****ing useless.

[amd2800barton]

what if the planets core slows down causing horrible storms across the earth? and we have to dig through the mantle and crust to the core to set off a nuke to set it turning again? what then?

or if there is a big evil asteroid coming towards us and we have to send two space shuttles to nuke them?

i thought so. we give you the pinnacle of crappy "entertainment thriller" movies! (the ones i was refering to here are the core, and Armageddon, both of which i can happily say i have never seen :) )

btw i was joking about America not having contributed to modern civilization at all, being sarcastic and poking fun at my country. England has done what? Fight napoleon? he was french! the english language? nobody learned me english. such a useless system. we should all communicate in binary! :lol:

[Raminator]

so what? they are still pretty ****ing useless.I should ask you that. My country doesn't possess any nukes.

[Flarty]

what if the planets core slows down causing horrible storms across the earth? and we have to dig through the mantle and crust to the core to set off a nuke to set it turning again? what then?

or if there is a big evil asteroid coming towards us and we have to send two space shuttles to nuke them?

i thought so. we give you the pinnacle of crappy "entertainment thriller" movies! (the ones i was refering to here are the core, and Armageddon, both of which i can happily say i have never seen :) )

btw i was joking about America not having contributed to modern civilization at all, being sarcastic and poking fun at my country. England has done what? Fight napoleon? he was french! the english language? nobody learned me english. such a useless system. we should all communicate in binary! :lol:

i agree and not only has england done nothing for the greater good of humanity, but we have also sent it to its doom, by creating america.

I should ask you that. My country doesn't possess any nukes.

you asking or telling me?? :s

[hoboman725]

haha, high five flarty

[Raminator]

i agree and not only has england done nothing for the greater god of humanity, but we have also sent it to its doom, by creating america.lmao :haha:

[amd2800barton]

I should ask you that. My country doesn't possess any nukes.

no but you sell us the uranium!! :lol:

[Flarty]

as long as it isnt depleted thats all good :P

[Mercer]

So...we'll enrich it! :D

[Mad Scientist]

manhattan project = usa
hydrogen bomb = usa
man on moon = usa

Oh dear. I think you should look up what those scientific feats were based on before you go bandying about such claims.

Especially because the USA did NOT invent the worlds first true hydrogen bomb. soviet russia did.



And enriching depleated uranium is kind of silly. Its much easier just to mine some new ore and enrich that. Speaking of which, i have recently discovered that one of the departments at university has a set of centrifuges that are theoretically powerfull enough for uranium enrichment.

I have a cunning plan...

[amd2800barton]

Mad Sci. i was not making bold claims. i was making a joke! please don't take me that seriously. i was making generalizations that american scientific endeavors were so far useless/harmful to humanity.

yes... its like alchemy (turning lead into gold). it is possible to do, just not practical. its much cheaper to mine something rather than use nuclear chemistry (very expensive and difficult) to synthesize it from lead.

[zim]

yes... its like alchemy (turning lead into gold). it is possible to do, just not practical. its much cheaper to mine something rather than use nuclear chemistry (very expensive and difficult) to synthesize it from lead.

Please dont tell me you belive in alchemy. Its impossible!

[Kester]

The technology you used to get an to the moon, is based on German V2 technology and the rest was mainly developed by German scientists, after you stole them all after WW2.

Oh and Zim, it is possible.

[NavMan]

what if the planets core slows down causing horrible storms across the earth? and we have to dig through the mantle and crust to the core to set off a nuke to set it turning again? what then?

or if there is a big evil asteroid coming towards us and we have to send two space shuttles to nuke them?

i thought so. we give you the pinnacle of crappy "entertainment thriller" movies! (the ones i was refering to here are the core, and Armageddon, both of which i can happily say i have never seen :) )

Those movies rock! And so do Deep Impact, The Day After Tomorrow, I, Robot,
and all the other end-of-the-world movies I cant think of right now.

Also, Australian technoogy rocks, we invented the hills-hoist and vegemite :tongue:

[Raminator]

We also invented things like the combine harvester, the differential, the electric drill, latex gloves, black box flight data recorders, the roll-a-door, the pacemaker, the notepad, bullet-proof glass, the photocopier, plastic bank notes, penicillin, the atomic absorption spectrometer, etc.

[zim]

Damn we rule.

[Kester]

Should I start on what England have invented?

[zim]

No, that would overshadow Australia's inventions.

[Raminator]

Should I start on what England have invented?Bad dental hygiene, tea and Margaret Thatcher. That about sums up the history of Britain since Australia was colonised. I think you might have had a tiff or two with the Germans, but we came and saved your arses.

[amd2800barton]

you forgot mary ****in popkins! england!

(hehehe snatch!)



Please dont tell me you belive in alchemy. Its impossible!

not by the midevial definition, but the process of one element changing into another when it absorbs/ejects protons neutrons is scientific FACT. Look at radioactive decay if you don't believe me. look it up (http://chemistry.about.com/cs/generalchemistry/a/aa050601a.htm)

its been done before. now when i said alchemy, i should've known some dummy would mistake me for a Scientologist or something retarded. what i meant was, turning one element or isotope into another. alchemists tried to use chemical REACTIONS. that was their error.

and assuming that something you dont know about is an absolute was your error

[Collision]

I also believe Australia invented the ugg boot, thong (shoe) and the motorised Lawn Mower.

[bluseychris]

The third is a modification/adaptation of existing devices and don't count.

[Raminator]

By your logic, nobody's invented anything for thousands of years because there are only a small number of simple machines (lever, blade, pulley, etc.) and all other inventions are simply based on them.

[Kester]

Not really, putting a motor on a lawn mower is hardly a break through in science, or an invention, it's an innovation.

[Raminator]

I love how the lawnmower is the only thing you guys can argue with. :haha:

Go back to your crumpets.

[Kester]

I'm not arguing, but like I said, if you want some real inventions let me know, and I'll start reeling them off for you =]

[Flarty]

Things The U.k Inveneted

1: Australia
2: America
3: Radar
4: The Dummies Handbook To Breaking The Enigma Code
5: Bicycle
6: Car
7: Motorbike
8: Robin Reliant
9: The Slave Trade :P
10: Industry and Factorys (probably the greatest invention ever)
11: Trains
12: The Wheel

theres more just cant remember, and before anyone gets upset 1 or 2 of them are jokes, i know we didnt invent the wheel ;)

EDIT: BEER sorry thats the greatest invention ever.

[Mad Scientist]

the atomic absorption spectrometer


Haha, thats a goodun. Next you'll be claiming that the austrailians invented steam engines as well.

[Raminator]

4: The Dummies Handbook To Breaking The Enigma Codelmao :haha:

[jambo]

13. Pig-headidness
14. Horrific dental hygiene :P
15. Horrific hygiene in general :rofl:

[Flarty]

13. Pig-headidness
14. Horrific dental hygiene :P
15. Horrific hygiene in general :rofl:

i just finished scrubbing my dick if you must know :dry:
and our dental hygiene is much better now with all the asians we got as dentists :P
as for pig headidness, yeah your right, but we cant help being so great :P

[Raminator]

Haha, thats a goodun. Next you'll be claiming that the austrailians invented steam engines as well.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_absorption_spectroscopyAtomic Absorption Spectroscopy was first developed during the 1950s by a team of Australian chemists, lead by Alan Walsh (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Walsh), working at the CSIRO (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CSIRO) (Commonwealth Science and Industry Research Organisation) Division of Chemical Physics, in Melbourne Australia.

[jambo]

Owned!

[Mad Scientist]

My analogy was carefully chosen. Read up on the history of the steam engine and you will see why. The discovery of atomic absorption spectroscopy actually dates back to sir issac newton, and has been used to examine the composition of stars and other celestial bodys long before the 1950's. The spectral lines that AES produces have names such as the Balmer Seires, and Fraunhofer lines, and i very much doubt that fraunhofer is an austrailian name.

[Raminator]

Again, this goes back to my point about what constitutes an "invention". We can keep going back to the ancient Egyptians and Greeks, if you like.

[Mad Scientist]

And conversly that means we should credit the latest designer to create a car design with the invention of automotive transport.

Invention comprises of two things: Either the discovery of a new principle and applying it to an actual device, or a totally new and otherwise unheard of way of using existing technology in a novel manner.

I'm afraid the AES device is neither. Some of your other statments of invention are true, but not that particular one.

[jambo]

Wait.... WHAT THE **** does this have to do with cloning?

[Mad Scientist]

Hmm, considering the topic is still on scienctific subjects, i think you should be fairly chuffed that this thread got to 7 pages with only a limited amount of drift.

[Kester]

5 by my count, but I'm a non-conformist.

[jambo]

We went from cloning to *****ing about who invented what :P Not exactly scientific.

And its 7 pages you damn hippy!

[Mad Scientist]

What subject would you put atomic emmision spectroscopy under then? Geography? :P

[jambo]

No you idiot, obviously its under the heading of Knitting! :P

[Kester]

Still 5 pages. I would post a screenshot if I was at home.

[tigger]

7 for me. Oh and...


SCOTLAND:
TV
TELEPHONE (YOU NEED THIS FOR INTERNET)


so basically, we just pwned you all.

[Solokiller]

Kester: your page settings are different, there's more post on one page for you.

[Dr.Aaron]

But you are all fogetting that I invented headcraps! And I'm in the UK! And jambo my teeth are awesomely white, unlike yours where I can see some yellow spots on zoomer! :haha: Muhahahaha!

Right...*reads topic title* Oh yes well done for Australia. I can finally transfer my memories into one of my younger clones muhahahaha oh wait I'm not in Australia oh ****!

[Ares]

If I recall correctly, all modern thermonuclear weapons rely on a primary fission explosion to achieve the temperatures and pressures required for the fusion reaction.

Well, true, I conveniently ommitted this to prove my point :P

[jambo]

Still 5 pages. I would post a screenshot if I was at home.

My Person Above Me thread in the GamerNode Off Topic area is 27 standard pages long :happy:

[marrow]

We can keep going back to the ancient Egyptians and Greeks, if you like.

im egyptian, and nearly thirty, so relatively ancient by most of your standards- therefore i invented everything.:tongue:

[Raminator]

5 by my count, but I'm a non-conformist.20 posts per page FTW, am I right? I thought I was the only one who stuck with that. http://www.flamehaus.com/bbs/images/smiles/rockon.gif

[zim]

Ive only got three pages. And the UK also invented chavs.

[Raminator]

To be fair, we did invent bogans.

[NavMan]

We pwn in cricket.

[amd2800barton]

We pwn in baseball. America has won the World Series how many years in a row now? :D hahaha.

it should be interesting to see how the new US Congress-Elect (with the Democratic majority) responds to what i feel is an overwhelming public plea by everyone except the religious right (not all right, just religious ones) to lift restrictions on/properly fund stem cell research.

it was a dividing issue among republicans these past few years. this is one of a few things i may look forward to with the dems in power.

[Kester]

Kester: your page settings are different, there's more post on one page for you.
Why do people think I'm a retard? =[

I know this and yes ram 20 posts a page is the only was to ride!

[Raminator]

GHETTO BRUSHWORK AND 20 PPP FO LYFE

R.E.S.T.E.C.P http://www.flamehaus.com/bbs/images/smiles/rockon.gif

[Collision]

You gona change that or leave it :P

[Raminator]

It's on purpose, sillybuns.

[Mad Scientist]

We pwn in baseball. America has won the World Series how many years in a row now? :D hahaha.

You see, the thing about american sports is that very few countries in the rest of the world care.

On the other hand, Britian invented nearly every sport that is played on an international level. Admittadly we suck at almost all of them, however, britain still gave them to the world.:P

[tottmaster_c]

I think this is bad news.

I don't care what you think of me, but using embryonic stem cells for therapeutic cloning is simply WRONG.

Who are we to decide wether that zygote is already a human being or not? Who are we to say that it's good to sacrifice a few to save the many?

Especially when you take into consideration that we all carry 'adult' stem cells that are as omnipotent (or nearly as omnipotent) as the ones gained from embryos. It's just that those embryos are easily accessible that makes it so tempting to use these.

I think that using adult stem cells might be of much greater use to humanity, both in terms of the curing of deseases and also in gaining knowledge of the workings of the cellular mechanisms that control the way cells evolve in our bodies.

As mad said on dolly, clones today are subjected to premature diseases, (as to why, we don't know yet, my guess is that it's the telomeres, the caps on the end of chromosomes that decrease with each mitosis and therefore are much smaller or even destroyed completely in adult organisms)
If we would use adult stem cells, those would be of the same age as the person that would receive the created organ (if that is even possible) or tissue.

[Mad Scientist]

As i said, the technology requires more work. Nobody is saying that it is ready to use, but the argument that the technology is imperfect now, and should be disgaurded is null and void. Its not just the stem cell research itself i am interested in, but also a particular projected spin off, that MUST be done on the stem cells, related to anti-aging treatment.


Who are we to decide wether that zygote is already a human being or not? Who are we to say that it's good to sacrifice a few to save the many?

Who are we? WE ARE HUMANS! humans have made these kind of desicions since the dawn of time. We have taken a world without humanity, and we have molded it to a creation as we see fit, to the best of our abilities. You yourself are partaking of the benefits of technology, simply by posting here.

Untill a deity parts the clouds and proves beyond all reasonable doubt that we are not the dominant creature on this planet, or untill aliens invade, or untill humanity is wiped or wipes istelf out, WE are the ONLY people to decide these questions. Our answers may not be perfect, but they are all we have. You would ask "Who are we?". I would ask "who else is there?". I will conceed this point if you can answer this one question, on basis of scientific proof.

These are of course, ONLY my views, and maybe its just the mad scientist in me, but i do not accept there are things that mankind must not find out. It is only through finding things out and exploring further, that humanity can improve itself, and possibly even grant a high quality of life for every single human in existance.

[Kester]

What that man said.

[tottmaster_c]

Who are we? WE ARE HUMANS! humans have made these kind of desicions since the dawn of time. We have taken a world without humanity, and we have molded it to a creation as we see fit, to the best of our abilities. You yourself are partaking of the benefits of technology, simply by posting here.


Yes, we have made this decisions throughout history, but that still doesn't mean they were the right thing to do.
I do not oppose technology, I myself am studying technical biology, but we should not further our understanding at any cost.


Untill a deity parts the clouds and proves beyond all reasonable doubt that we are not the dominant creature on this planet, or untill aliens invade, or untill humanity is wiped or wipes istelf out, WE are the ONLY people to decide these questions. Our answers may not be perfect, but they are all we have. You would ask "Who are we?". I would ask "who else is there?". I will conceed this point if you can answer this one question, on basis of scientific proof.


This has nothing to with deitys. I do believe in god, but I am by no way opposed to modern science.

But since there's only us on this earth, it's our responsibility to treat life in all its forms with the respect it deserves. Using adult stem cells instead of embryonic, the being from which these cells are taken has made that decision based on it's free will, therefore I don't see any moral problems with that.


These are of course, ONLY my views, and maybe its just the mad scientist in me, but i do not accept there are things that mankind must not find out. It is only through finding things out and exploring further, that humanity can improve itself, and possibly even grant a high quality of life for every single human in existance.

This is indeed a issue that heavily depends on personal views, belief and morals. I don't think that we will ever find a broad consensus in matters like this.

I, too don't that there are things we are not meant to find out, it's merely a matter of which path do we choose and which lines do we cross on our way to that knowledge. To me, embryonic tissue is one of those lines.

[Flarty]

well here in the uk, scientist have took stem cells, from a baby's umbilical cord and grew a liver.

[tottmaster_c]

HA! another source for stem cells apart from embryonic ones. I totally forgot the cord!

[Flarty]

yeah and once cloning is legalized surely you could just clone the cells? or am i totally mislead by what i saw on that film multiplicity? :P

[Kester]

We can clone cells currently. You essentially culture them to rapidly divide. At least that is my understanding.

It's when you try and make these collections of cells do something like an organ would when the problems arise.

[natedgreat3]

Personally... I fully support any method of curing disease that DOESN'T involve human life (embryos). People say the stem cells contained in embryos could save hundreds of people, this is 100% true. However, there are other ways of obtaining stem cells then from embryos. I believe they should pursue these methods instead.

Some people say embryos aren't humans, and thats an issue that comes down to personal opinion: science hasn't shown conclusively yet.

Its a FACT that an embryo is just a cluster of cells, but where the debate lies, is that cluster of cells "human"? My question to anyone claiming its not.. is that if its not human.. then what is it? A beaver? :P think about it: We were all at one time or other a cluster of cells just like that... and we consider ourselves human.

See the movie The Island. No one would support killing obviously living, feeling human clones just for the use of their organs for people rich enough to pay for it. Thats because: they're obviously HUMANS. So, IF human embryos are considered "humans" shouldn't the same moral values be carried over to them? Is extending the life of one person really worth the cost of 100 "human" embryos?

Deep questions here. Think about it ;)

[tottmaster_c]

edit: this was directed at kester, nate posted while i was researching english vocabulary

Clones are individuals with an identic genome. Wether they are monads or higher organisms is not relevant for that nomenclature.

Cells basically clone themselves by normal cell division (unless we're talking about meiosis).

The difficult part is to artificially produce a clone of an already adult organism. This must be done by inserting the genome of said organism into a cell that still has the ability to grow to an adult state. With humans (and most metazoa I think), only zygotes (that first cell that the embryo develops of) and stem cells have that ability.

So to artificially "clone" (that word is actually incorrect for this procedure) an entire organ, we would need to know how the cells know into which type of cell they have to develop.
And we're far from knowing how that works.

[Kester]

I eat embryos for breakfast.

How far back do you go though, is my sperm life? That's potential life, should I stop wacking off?

(trying to keep it a little less deep here, debating forum will come soon for you to all talk deep and meaningful)

[tottmaster_c]

Well, sperms are part of YOUR body, I think it's up to you what you do with that.

It's my opinion that a new human individual is only created upon the karyogenesis of the nuclei of the sperm and the egg.
(i.e. when the sperm has entered the egg and the cores of the two cells have fusioned)

[natedgreat3]

hahah thats a point Kester :) I personally don't consider it life until its fused with an egg, because it can't survive on its own for very long, and it won't develop into a human by itself

[tottmaster_c]

Well, that would apply to the zygote, too.
Since we metazoa decided to have conception happening INSIDE the females womb, the zygote is dependent on protection/nourishment

[natedgreat3]

true, but we are dependent on nutrition as well ;) the zygote however, unlike the egg and the sperm separately, WILL develop into a human.

[Kester]

Like tott said an embryo wouldn't last long without the mother, although it does have potential to grow into life.

I think we are getting into a pro life discussion, which is kind of off topic though.

[tottmaster_c]

I think that pro-life thing is basically what
"therapeutic cloning with embryonic stem cells: yes or no?"
is all about.

[natedgreat3]

from my understanding.. that and abortion is all they care about :P

I wouldn't call myself pro-life, but I don't believe in the needless killing of humans (as does most people I would imagine)

[tottmaster_c]

so the word "pro-life" is associated with the issue of abortion? I guess my previous statement needs to be reformulated. I will do so when I find another word that's not... dammit. I have to expand on my english vocabulary.

[Mad Scientist]

Respect due to life is sometimes an odd concept. We believe that all life should be credited with respect, yet we will happily kill off millions of creatures in order to feed our civilisations. If life is due respect simply because it is life, then the only being that is fit to make that judgment is a human (untill a higher power of some description comes along). Life is due no respect, unless we decide it is, therefore i feel it is something of a misnomer to grant it such immutable rights as though they are a natrual consequence of existance.

As for the debate on when a microscopic bag of chemicals becomes a human? A tricky and controversial topic i'm not sure personally, but i would personally put it far later than conception. I personally believe that there are different degrees of humanity, the highest of which isn't obtained for at least 13-15 years, more likly aroung 18-20. Of course i would not say that an individual can be killed at any point before this, but there is clearly a developmental proccess gained as time goes by. Only once one starts on that road does the person become human. When does that road start? As i have said, i'm not certain, but i would tend to put it at the point where the brain becomes capable of recieving external stimulus. Before that, i would not class an embryo, or feotus as human. And yes, i would be willing to apply that argment to myself, in that i do not believe i qualified as human myself at that point. However this is all entirly subjective, and so it is something that cannot be pinned down scientifically.

What can be pinned down scientiffically, is that there are some discoveries that can only be made WITH the use of embryonic stem cells. By understanding how they grow, divide and differentiate, we may oneday hope to be able to control the proccess, with the vast benefits that would come about form such a discovery. To say that we should not research into stemcells is saying there are some things we should not know. If that is what a person believes, than that is their perrogative, but the two believes are exclusive. You cannot say, there is no such thing as THINGS WE SHOULD NOT KNOW, and that we should not research into stem cells.

[tottmaster_c]

As for the debate on when a microscopic bag of chemicals becomes a human?

Well, we're macroscopic bags of chemicals then, aren't we?
I think that this field of the debate is more of a philosophical nature than a scientific one.

Yes, we do slaughter lots of living creatures to sustain our lifes and civilisation, but I think this should not go further than it does in nature. Killing animals for food is ok, but I despise anything that goes beyond this (i.e. Leather, guitar parts made of bone, etc.)

What can be pinned down scientiffically, is that there are some discoveries that can only be made WITH the use of embryonic stem cells. By understanding how they grow, divide and differentiate, we may oneday hope to be able to control the proccess, with the vast benefits that would come about form such a discovery. To say that we should not research into stemcells is saying there are some things we should not know. If that is what a person believes, than that is their perrogative, but the two believes are exclusive. You cannot say, there is no such thing as THINGS WE SHOULD NOT KNOW, and that we should not research into stem cells.

I said we should not research on EMBRYONIC stem cells. I have no problem with research on adult stem cells. I would even do research in that area if given the opportunity (and of course my qualifications sould be sufficient).

Also, I think if we're after the general mechanisms of embryogenesis, wouldn't the embryos of non-sentient lifeforms be sufficient? (this is not a rethorical question)

[natedgreat3]

good points Mad Sci :)

Personal opinions and beliefs really call the show here until science proves one way or the other.

Personally I believe as soon as sperm and egg are fertilized, thats a human. It has all the ingredients needed to become a fully functional human adult right there, it can "live and develop on its own" so to speak, so imho its human. Obviously it needs the mother to survive, just as we are dependant on certain things, like water, to survive. But just because it might be dependant on something doesn't make it non-human.

[Mad Scientist]

Also, I think if we're after the general mechanisms of embryogenesis, wouldn't the embryos of non-sentient lifeforms be sufficient?

Not if we want to look at how advanced neuron structures evolve from conception to first sentience.