Why are some of you guys Atheists?

[Alex6969]

I know some of my beloved GN mates are atheists, and I was wondering why you decided on the atheism route. I myself I'm a "Christian", but every day it gets harder and harder to be one. Not so much that I don't have faith or don't believe or whatever, its all those other damn Christians. They seem to ruin everyone's fun, and that is one thing that I simply cannot stand. This (http://www.ooze.com/toolofsatan/) is a good example of what I mean. More and more, I'm embarrassed to be called a Christian when things like this go on. I my self have no denomination, as I think they all are pretty weird. I like to think it's "God" and myself hanging out everyday and as long as I'm a good person and have good Karma, I'll go to "heaven" and do whatever I want for eternity. Some people my not thing this is "right" but it sure beats Hell or nothing.

Mods: If this is two "forward" thinking, I understand why it will be deleted. It is not my intention to offend anyone, or to downplay anyone's religion, just stating how I feel at this point and time.

[lskennedy]

i think this is a good topic, and i have always wondered myself that it seems like theres a lot of atheists on here, no offense. I feel the same as you, me and the "g-man" are just icking it till my heart stopsa working

[bluseychris]

I'm agnostic, but to be honest I can't see any entirely justifiable evidence to support the bible. I can see some of the reasoning behind some of the stories, giving people a second chance, not judging base on appearance, not over reacting, being honest and such but I don't take the bible as being a literal historic text. It's more of a moral compass to me.

I'm not against the theory of life being created by artificial means, we know we can clone and it's a few (complicated) steps down from creating life from scratch, terraforming is a long way off, but they're doable in theory in a realistic way. But to me, the Bible presents itself in more of a fantastical way than is believable for me.

[zim]

I could copypasta what I wrote in the cthulhu thread, maybe Ill do it later.

[Garcian Smith]

I simply choose not to believe in (any) God because I have yet to discover any tangiable evidence he exists, their 'followers' are far-too-often caught in unholy or downright bad situations and a little thing called 'preaching'.

[Winged One]

Think of it this way: There are thousands of religions, and these religions are further broken down into different factions. Now, taking this into account, who are we to say one is right? Can you truly say "Christianity is true, everyone else is wrong!"? It could be an offbeat religion never heard of. It could be that we are nothing but chance, created by a freak chemical reaction in the early stages of the planet. Thing is, there is little proof of any religion, and the fact that every religion says they are correct kills me.

[Alex6969]

Exactly guys!
A.) people follow the Bible to the "T" and I don't understand. I think the Bible represents good ideas as stated by bluesychris; be good to one another, live a good life, don't kill anybody, etc. They are stories to live by, not to be taken literally.

B.) All of the religions teach the same thing as Christianity. Love each other, don't kill each other, be happy in your life. So many people think that their religion is right and everyone else is going to hell. Come on guys, is that whay Jesus/Allah/The Bhudda/Confucius/The Dao would say? Having taken a Religions of the World class in college, which I highly recommend to anyone with the opportunity to take, I got a look at all of the religions and they all had the same message, live a good life.

C.) The whole fight over Creationism/Evolutionism has to stop. I like to thing that I'm a pretty forward thinking guy. This is something my grandfather told me a while ago, he is a very religious Christian who attends church every Sunday and reads the Bible every morning, but he also is very intelligent and he has taught me most about science, and the world around us. He said that "Couldn't God have used evolution as a tool to create the world?" Bamn! I will never forget that talk we shared. Is is so hard to believe that "God" created the Big Bang? or created dinosaurs and changed them into humans? If you take the Bible literally and believe Jesus turned water into wine, then surely that isn't too far of a stretch.

[intooblivion]

Yeah I don't get how some christians can say "evolution is too improbable" when they believe in it raining all over the world for 40 straight days, flooding the entire world. (for one thing, where did all the water come from? Rain water comes from bodies of water, if it flooded all over the world, that would mean it was alien rain from outer space)

I tell most "super" christians about the "god used evoultion as a tool to create" but some of them are just stubborn, but the smarter ones actually get it after a while.

[flame]

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?”

- Epicurus

He sums it up nicely.

[Kaze]

8RV46fsmx6E

Penn and Teller sum it up nicely.

[Garcian Smith]

I love Penn and Teller.

[rtanger]

Why am I not a follower of any religion? Why do I not accept the idea of a sentient force powering the universe? I guess because the more I think about it, the more I find a greater appreciation of our universe and the incredible intricacies of our natural world by really believing such a wonderful thing can happen by chance and that it shows that really, in this morass of chaos that defines everything that is everything, things of incredible beauty can occur out of the most random of circumstances, that anything is indeed possible if it's given enough time. If our universe is the creation of another, that gives us room to excuse how special it is, take it for granted. Something that is created can always be created again. Something that just happens on its own seems much more special in that there is the chance it could never occur again. I hope that came across right...

Religions by and large are comprised of wonderful ideas on how a life should be lived and have constructed some very rich and meaningful mythologies over the centuries, but at any one point in time, someone is capable of taking these ideas and inflicting unspeakable evils with them. Genocides and wars have been carried out in the name of righteousness by varying factions in damn near every era of human history. The last time religious ideas held sway completely over Western thought and philosophy, it was called the Dark Ages. Even in this modern era of complete globalization and the ability to freely share all philosophies and thought for the betterment of all, varying groups, in the name of their religion, block all ideas that disagree with theirs and force upon their subjects a fanatical lifestyle in the name of their deity.

I believe in one thing only, and that's the ability of the human race to someday find out how silly it is to murder or persecute another over an idea-- or belief.

It's okay, to me, to have religious beliefs and believe in a deity if it makes your life more fulfilled. But one should be ready to recognize when that faith has overstepped its bounds and is taking its followers in a less than savory direction, or is indeed exploiting those very followers for its own gain.
edit- it's worth pointing out that agnosticism and atheism are themselves beliefs, and it's fully possible for them to be exploited and abused by others in the same manner as any recognized (or otherwise) religion. I guess the ultimate point is that we should all be allowed to decide for ourselves, and not be threatened by a disagreement or opposing idea, to accept and study it for ourselves, and appreciate other's conclusions as well as our own. The only thing really worth believing in, to me, is humanity's ability to someday overcome this particular tunnel-vision shortcoming entirely.

[Alex6969]

Its finally nice to hear thoughts and opinions of truly intelligent people such as myself. I was losing faith in humanity up until this point, I now know that clear, un-biased thought does exist. The common message I get from this is that we should follow rules of ethics and conduct that all religions teach. Be good, or bad things happen to you. That's a fair representation of how the universe works in my honest opinion.

About the whole ten commandment court house thing, I for one, feel that they should be kept there for a couple of reasons.

A.) Faith in God or not, the majority of the ten commandments are good rules live by. Don't kill each other, don't steal, don't cheat on each other, etc. As for not believing in any other god except for God, think about it this way. Some say God lives in each of us. Therefor we should believe in ourselves, relying on our own intelligence and wisdom to live a good life and find happiness.

B.) It's history. Believe it or not, America was founded on the premise of Christianity. The Founding Fathers believed that they were serving a just cause by rebelling from England, (no hard feelings guys :)) and sought to put "In God we trust" on money and whatever else. I think it represents a good idea that justice should be fair and equal and that everyone is equal. Now we people take it literally and think that "God" himself wants us to have his name on our money and buildings, well that's about as believable as Noah going to Jambo's house and dropping off some friends with pouches.

[John Clabo]

I know some of my beloved GN mates are atheists, and I was wondering why you decided on the atheism route. I myself I'm a "Christian", but every day it gets harder and harder to be one. Not so much that I don't have faith or don't believe or whatever, its all those other damn Christians. They seem to ruin everyone's fun, and that is one thing that I simply cannot stand. This (http://www.ooze.com/toolofsatan/) is a good example of what I mean. More and more, I'm embarrassed to be called a Christian when things like this go on. I my self have no denomination, as I think they all are pretty weird. I like to think it's "God" and myself hanging out everyday and as long as I'm a good person and have good Karma, I'll go to "heaven" and do whatever I want for eternity. Some people my not thing this is "right" but it sure beats Hell or nothing.

Mods: If this is two "forward" thinking, I understand why it will be deleted. It is not my intention to offend anyone, or to downplay anyone's religion, just stating how I feel at this point and time.

Sites such as the one you linked, NORMALLY are 100% fake. They're normally made by morons with entirely too much time on their hands. Others, call themselves Christians but IMO are far from it....Im looking at you westborow "baptist" church...

You wont find me on the message boards here ranting and screaming about my beliefs, however if someone wants to stay miles away from God because of other "Christians", thats their choice. What gets me upset is when people bash others over what they believe in, or dont believe in. If you're a Christian, awesome, see you in heaven, if you're not a Christian, I can't say I'm stoked about it but I'm certainly not going to throw my bible in your face....why? Because that doesnt help a single thing but make that person hate my belief even more.

God says we're to love, not hate. God says Judge not....so I do my best to never even come close to judging others. That's really all I have to say about the whole thing. This is just my opinion. :salute:


~John

[Alex6969]

And a very valid one at that, John

[Cobra951]

I'm agnostic, but to be honest I can't see any entirely justifiable evidence to support the bible. I can see some of the reasoning behind some of the stories, giving people a second chance, not judging base on appearance, not over reacting, being honest and such but I don't take the bible as being a literal historic text. It's more of a moral compass to me.

I'm not against the theory of life being created by artificial means, we know we can clone and it's a few (complicated) steps down from creating life from scratch, terraforming is a long way off, but they're doable in theory in a realistic way. But to me, the Bible presents itself in more of a fantastical way than is believable for me.

I'm agnostic as well. While I don't deny everyone's right to believe whatever they want, my belief is that human beings don't know, and will never know, anything about God, if such an entity does in fact exist. There are many who *think* they know, but they are deluded. I recognize my extreme smallness as an observer of the universe. I recognize my insignificance as a processor of facts and experiences, and the impossibility of ever comprehending the whole of reality.

[MaxTheLimit]

Agnostic is what all humans should be in my opinion. Because of our lack of understanding, and lack of greater purpose in modern life I don't feel anyone has the perspective to know what past or present greater sense of the world really is. I really don't think that is what religion is for though. Religion is a means of making yourself part a community, and a good person by means of guidelines that you can interpret close to your own personal values.

The problem with interpretation is that humans are not of hive mind or even like mind. We see the world differently from individual to individual. This means that no matter the religion there is a means of personal choice by which we can live by.

I am not agnostic in the sense that it means that I don't know what to believe. It's not entirely true because I feel pretty sure about many things that aren't true and can thereby tweak my beliefs based on my perception of common sense.

I think of myself as Atheist because with the information at hand no organized religion is beneficial to our species, and with the knowledge I've been able to attain, it isn't withing plausible possibility. I would like to call myself agnostic, but I'm yet to think of any reason why my mis-belief of common accepted religion means anything other than a personal system is beneficial over a system f "I'm not sure, so I won't cancel out all odds."

I wish agnosticism was more a complete admission of lack of understanding rather than an action of throwing the arms up to the religious community and saying one may be true, but I can't commit to one.

Then again, I'm ver dunk and won't recall this tomorrow.

[flame]

Also wouldn't a God respect someone more who is good because they choose to be, rather than because they fear eternal torture in hell or whatever.
Maybe there is a God, and practising good atheism is the right religion.

[Mad Scientist]

A most paradoxical statement indeed.

Anyhow, my own road to atheism is a somewhat strange affair. There were incidents and landmarks and memorable features along the route, but i shall not recount them here. Most (but not all) of the individual reasons have already been accounted for here, so instead i will speak of the underlying principles.

It may surprise most people to know it, but one of my core beliefs, even as the arch-dawkinist and scientist that i am, is that faith plays perhaps one of the most important factors in being human. Ultimately, everything we know about the world rely upon us giving some degree of veracity to the sensations provided to us by our senses. Yet for all i know, i could be a brain in a tank in another mad scientist's laboratory. It may seem like pointless philosophizing but it highlights a very important point. Everything we do boils down to belief and faith. I believe i am a real human being sitting at my computer, conversing with other real human beings via the fabulous medium of the Internet. I believe that, excluding intoxications, my senses can be trusted, and that i can treat them as a given before basing all the scientific facts and theories i know upon them.

I do not believe in a personal god. At a particular point in my life, i started viewing the universe as being far simper in operation without a God than with one. However, although i do not have faith in a deity, i DO have a tremendous amount of faith in humanity. Despite genocide and war, i still see more people working to better humanity, than i do to destroy or debase it. I believe than any civilization that can go form mud huts to space stations in only a handful of centuries deserves incredible respect. Those of you who have read my extrapolations of the Fermi paradox will understand that humanity is an most likely unusually cunning species, with a great deal ahead of it.

Faith is important, but it all depends on what you believe in. I will never tell a person what to believe. I'm not going to even end that sentence with a "but" as alto of other atheists i know would. All i would say is that i made my choices some time ago. Ultimately, it boils down to this:

The universe does not require a god to function, but this does not refute the existence of a deity.

Believe in what works best for you.

Along as your beliefs do not hurt others, then there is no conflict.

Follow those guidlines, and you cannot go wrong.

[Cobra951]

I wish agnosticism was more a complete admission of lack of understanding rather than an action of throwing the arms up to the religious community and saying one may be true, but I can't commit to one.

"Agnostic" literally means "without knowledge" or "not knowing". The word is derived from Greek. I simply don't know. I am overwhelmingly convinced that such matters cannot be known by human beings. I am not "throwing up my arms". I have reached a conclusion: ignorance is unavoidable. Why dwell on it? I have other things to do.

[Alex6969]

If it's any clue into how much I love reading/learning about anything, I have and read the Necronomicon.

I was disappointed.

[Atomic Waffle]

I've stopped caring and just decided to be awesome in my life. I mean, really, what's the point of asking questions you'll never know the answers to? You enjoy life, and if it's the only one, then at least you had a good run. If it's not, hey, at least you get a prize at the end. Who knows, maybe it's a one-up and a fresh start, maybe it's a paradise, maybe it's a horrible, hellish plane of existance or maybe it's just a void. Whatever.

[Mad Scientist]

what's the point of asking questions you'll never know the answers to?

Why do you assume that? There are millions of answers that have eluded humanity for a long time, only to be answered to a degree of satisfaction. Whats more, the reason such questions usually remain unanswered is that people assumed them to be unanswerable.

[MaxTheLimit]

"Agnostic" literally means "without knowledge" or "not knowing". The word is derived from Greek. I simply don't know.

Thanks for the definition, because I gave cues to not know what it means already. :dry:

I am overwhelmingly convinced that such matters cannot be known by human beings. I am not "throwing up my arms". I have reached a conclusion: ignorance is unavoidable. Why dwell on it? I have other things to do.

I wasn't speaking about you specifically. More on Agnostics in general. An agnostic acknowledges their lack of information to make an informed decision, and thus reject religious follow. However, many agnostics (or those who claim to be) are just trying to find a religion that suits them, and don't really look into the spiritual ramifications, or the historical influences of it.

[Cobra951]

Well, I didn't mean to imply anything by my definition of the word. I was just laying the premise for the rest of my post. You're saying that there are a lot of reluctant agnostics out there. They want to believe in something, but so far, no dice. I have no trouble believing that. :)

[Ares]

Mad Scientist and RTanger pretty much just voiced my opinion, although:

By nature I'm far too skeptical and pessimistic to believe that there's an all-powerful, all-knowing, all-loving being watching over the world that created everything the way it is. I haven't seen anything confirming the existance of God, and with the amount of violence, poverty, and hate occuring in the world, I have trouble seeing how said all-loving, all-knowing, and all-powerful diety could just observe the chaos and not use his powers to correct things.

Primarily though, my lack of faith is from the reasons RTanger put forth.

[Atomic Waffle]

Why do you assume that? There are millions of answers that have eluded humanity for a long time, only to be answered to a degree of satisfaction. Whats more, the reason such questions usually remain unanswered is that people assumed them to be unanswerable.

I can guarantee you in my lifetime they won't be if only because of the complexity of the question itself.

[zim]

My beliefs lean more towards nihilism, although I hate the way people try to group people by their beliefs, as if atheism is a whole religion within itself.

[jambo]

I've never believed in any God or higher power and I very much doubt I ever will.

[Collision]

The more and more I think about how the Christian faith works, the more and more they also appear as a cult.

Sorry to say this Christians, but you sound rather deranged to me, you believe in a savior who has been here already (apparently), killed and now you have churches around the world getting as much money as they can, but for what, what do you need money, where do all the donations go?

The higher power part of things I wont start, mainly because I wont finish.

During my trip to Paris, a very very pro Jesus city and country, I found no sense in going to a building where give money to sit down and listen to a man talk about happens when you die, because this simply just bull crap, no one knows what happens when you die, and pretty stupid and ignorant to say that you do.

[intooblivion]

I know when you die your body usually gets decomposed.

BWAHAHA I KNOW WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU DIE!!!


Take that, religion.

[ninjalegend]

For me there are too many pigeon holes in religion. The bible is full of paradoxes.(God is perfect. He created humans. Humans are not perfect.Gods creation is imperfect. Therefor, God is imperfect.) It is full of hate and intolerance. It is said to be the literal word of god, yet is augmented by men all the time. The concept of hell with the fire and brimstone was made to fill the pews after the book dante's inferno was such a big hit.(before that, the vision of the fallen angel was blue and frozen from the lack of light from God. No army of darkness or any of that) And more people have died in the name of Jesus Christ (both for and against) than in world war 1+2, Vietnam, Korea, and the gulf wars combined. That is just my take, though. Believe what you wish. I want logic. I want prof.

[Quasar]

Speaking as a former atheist and agnostic I can say specifically why I subscribed to each of these beliefs.

Atheist phase: I had a deep devotion to science and believed that everything could be explained through scientific method or logic. Of course that excluded the idea of God because God can't be put into a situation where you can test to see if he exists or not. Added to that, I fully rebelled against anyone or anything that would tell me what was right or wrong-- be it God or human. Added to this was the unsavory image of what a Christian was in addition to other religious minded people of other faiths. So I decided that there was no God. Leave me alone, I don't need anyone or anything to tell me how to live my life.

Agnostic phase: The more I honestly tried to comprehend how the universe and everything in it worked, the less comfortable I felt with my belief that there was no intelligent force behind what I saw. As pointed out before, I was a big science fan. As much as I wanted to believe the Big Bang theory, the idea of evolution ( which by the way contradicts the second law of thermodynamics in that all systems degrade with time and not get more complex), I realized that I was at a disadvantage. If I, as a human, only new less than a fraction of 1% of what there is to know about the entire universe, I asked myself this question, "if 99% of the knowledge out there is unknown to me, how can I honestly say that there is no God?" So I took the safe route of being honest with myself and declared that there is no way to know. Hence I was an agnostic-- someone who claims that this knowledge of God is unknowable.

Believing phase: Ironically it was science that drove me to believe in God. The intricacies of the human genome... all those DNA letters (six billion at last count) having to be in perfect sequence to form just one living thing, let alone the millions of different life forms on Earth that needed to subscribe to the same perfect pattern, was too much for me to ignore and believe that it was merely due to chance. Seeing order in the universe... ticking away as if a master craftsman made a gigantic clock running smoothly and accurately was another sign to me that something was afoot. But in the long run it wasn't my mind that decided that God existed. It sounds like a fairy tale and many balk at the idea that God came to earth to become a human in order to save the fallen state of man. But that's what I came to acknowledge.

But this theme is often repeated in the games we love so dearly (you RPG fans know what I'm talking about)... a champion or individual that comes to save his people. We have no problem suspending our belief system when we hear of these storylines, but we, just as I did, cringed at the fact that something like this could have possibly happened in the history of humanity...God coming to earth because he loved everyone so much that he didn't think it was a big thing to come to earth to try to fix things. And when he did show up, they killed him. Nice reception.

The problem with believing is that you are constantly at odds with yourself...you know there are things that you should be doing and don't, and things that you do that you shouldn't. This feeling doesn't come from anybody telling you...you just know deep inside. So the idea is that we're all imperfect in some way or another and those who believe that we get a second, third, a million chances from God to do what's right is our only hope to get some peace of mind. Not everybody believes that, and that's ok because we all have free will to choose our own courses.

So there you have it, my life journey in a few paragraphs. Your mileage may vary...

[John Clabo]

The more and more I think about how the Christian faith works, the more and more they also appear as a cult.

Sorry to say this Christians, but you sound rather deranged to me, you believe in a savior who has been here already (apparently), killed and now you have churches around the world getting as much money as they can, but for what, what do you need money, where do all the donations go?

The higher power part of things I wont start, mainly because I wont finish.

During my trip to Paris, a very very pro Jesus city and country, I found no sense in going to a building where give money to sit down and listen to a man talk about happens when you die, because this simply just bull crap, no one knows what happens when you die, and pretty stupid and ignorant to say that you do.

You're right about the donations *aka tithes* often times funding nothing but the "pastor"'s expensive hummer. Ive seen this many times locally and it sure as heck doesnt help the image of the rest of us.

About visiting a church, you shouldnt have to offer or even be asked to offer any sort of money when visiting. The bible says you should give 10% of your income every pay check when you belong to a church. It's not a deal breaker, and you WILL NOT go to heaven over it hehe.

I agree though that so many of the "Christian" organizations are rather...false, fake, and ignorant. I'll say that really the only thing you and the rest of the world can do is try to understand that not everyone has to be like that in order to believe in Jesus Christ and what not.

Anything can start out clean as snow and be corrupted by mankind. I mean we've been corrupting stuff since day 1....:dry:

For me there are too many pigeon holes in religion. The bible is full of paradoxes.(God is perfect. He created humans. Humans are not perfect.Gods creation is imperfect. Therefor, God is imperfect.) It is full of hate and intolerance. It is said to be the literal word of god, yet is augmented by men all the time. The concept of hell with the fire and brimstone was made to fill the pews after the book dante's inferno was such a big hit.(before that, the vision of the fallen angel was blue and frozen from the lack of light from God. No army of darkness or any of that) And more people have died in the name of Jesus Christ (both for and against) than in world war 1+2, Vietnam, Korea, and the gulf wars combined. That is just my take, though. Believe what you wish. I want logic. I want prof.

Edit: Just a quick note on this post. According to what I believe in, man was created perfect. However God gave us this amazing gift known as free choice. We chose to screw up our perfect world, and turn to pain, murder....etc.

Regarding war in the name of God..just because they say that Jesus himself wanted it done, doesnt mean that's the truth. God gives us some simple rules to follow regarding murder and any sort of war. Going out and hanging people who dont believe, was NOT one of them. Again, this is mankind's corruption and twisting of the truth to bend it to their will.

Again though this is all just my take on it, so....feel free to disagree hehe.

~John

[Ares]

For me there are too many pigeon holes in religion. The bible is full of paradoxes.(God is perfect. He created humans. Humans are not perfect.Gods creation is imperfect. Therefor, God is imperfect.) It is full of hate and intolerance. It is said to be the literal word of god, yet is augmented by men all the time. The concept of hell with the fire and brimstone was made to fill the pews after the book dante's inferno was such a big hit.(before that, the vision of the fallen angel was blue and frozen from the lack of light from God. No army of darkness or any of that) And more people have died in the name of Jesus Christ (both for and against) than in world war 1+2, Vietnam, Korea, and the gulf wars combined. That is just my take, though. Believe what you wish. I want logic. I want prof.

I'm actually with John on this one. A huge part of Christianity is free will - the way I understand it, God would rather have people that guinely lived their lives well enough to be in Heaven, rather than him just universally making a perfect race. Essentially, the explanation is that God doesn't mess the world up, people do, and he keeps his hands off because the people that remain good souls through the mess are that much more worthy to go to Heaven (correct me if I'm wrong). I'd have to say that if I were God I'd probably do the same thing... an existance of perpetual good with no evil to fight must get boring after a while. B)

[John Clabo]

he keeps his hands off because the people that remain good souls through the mess are that much more worthy to go to Heaven (correct me if I'm wrong).

Well I believe that God asks us one simple thing. To have Jesus in your heart...believe he died on the cross for your sins....Do that, and mean it, and you're going to go to heaven. While we wait for either death or his return, we're to live good lives, help others whenever possible, and try our best to follow the 10 commandments. Religious or not the 10 commandments are great morals to live life by. ;)

A lot of it depends on who you ask and which part of Christianity they try to follow. Thats the bad part about religion as a whole. There are so many different versions to what was once the same story. Mankind, as I stated earlier, has this habit of corrupting things. Some people thing that believing that Jesus died for your sins gets you into heaven is entirely too easy, and that you must cut the grass, do your laundry, and run a marathon nine times in order to get "accepted". Well in my belief, we dont get accepted....we accept him. :happy:

Peace :salute:

[Wasabi]

I think the best way to sum up my belief is...

Pics or it didn't happen.

[intooblivion]

http://sinfest.net/comikaze/comics/2000-07-08.gif

[Quasar]

Think of it this way: There are thousands of religions, and these religions are further broken down into different factions. Now, taking this into account, who are we to say one is right? Can you truly say "Christianity is true, everyone else is wrong!"? It could be an offbeat religion never heard of. It could be that we are nothing but chance, created by a freak chemical reaction in the early stages of the planet. Thing is, there is little proof of any religion, and the fact that every religion says they are correct kills me.Those are all very good points. Let's look at it from a "spiritual realm" perspective. Let's just assume, for the sake of argument, that God did come down to Earth to spread the news that he wanted everyone to have a second chance to reunite with him and gain entryway into the afterlife instead of going the way of destruction.

Now, assume that there are other forces out there that would just love to trash this plan of salvation for mankind. It's obvious that they can't hide the truth because the message is already out there...so what else can you do? You try to throw people off on the wrong track...offer them substitutes, fakes, obscure the message with people who don't know what they are talking about. If you can't destroy the message, they you try to corrupt or make it unclear.

Sure, I agree. There are so many different messages out there. But just because there are, doesn't mean that the "truth" doesn't exist. It sounds absurd that only one message can be true, but we accept these sorts of circumstances all the time. We accept things that only have one facet...we accept that gravity will pull us from the top of a building if we jump off. It doesn't matter if we don't believe in gravity or refuse to acknowledge that one law of gravity is true. The results are the same regardless of our personal beliefs or unbeliefs. Is this unfair? No, because that is a physical law we understand. There are also spiritual laws as well that dictate what happens to us as we make choices that determine our destiny.

And on this particular issue, no one or thing can force any of us to choose. It is our choice. A kingdom ruled by force isn't a kingdom...it is a prison.

[bu11eTJuNkiE]

I don't see how a god that is supposed to be so loving can care so little. If god is the almighty then he should be able to stop all the disease and suffering in the world. Whether or not he wanted to stop it. If it was a human that had the power to stop it but didn't because of whatever agenda they had they'd be seen as one sick individual, but not god. He gets praised. So, even if there is a god I don't wanna worship one like that.

[David]

The problem with most non believers and Christians alike is the fact they don’t take the time study the bible and scriptures. So many people find it easier to just say they don’t believe than to take the time to study the Bible and Christianity. Being a Christian is much more than going to Church, Giving your Tithes, and trying to be a "good" person. It’s about studying the word of Christ and understanding it and mostly it’s about building a relationship with God. I have been a Christian almost my whole life, But only in the last few years have I begun to understand what the Bible means, Just reading the Bible is not even going to get you close to understanding Christianity, But studying it and taking the time to find the parallels between the old and new testament is such an awesome discovery. The Bible has so much to say about our past history and even tells of things to come.
We have Gods will, Mans will, and Satans will. And with these wills it is both an earthly and spiritual battle for Man to choose what will he wants to follow. Lets not forget who Satan is...He was at first Gods highest ranking Angel, But because God gave us all our own will Lucifer thought he was worthy of announcing himself as a God, And because of this he was sent to earth along with one third of the angels that followed him with their own free will. Also lets not confuse Gods love for us and the thought that he should remove all war, sickness and evil from earth...if that was the case then we would lose the most important thing in life ...Our free will... SO with all my rambling on I will leave you with this. It has taken me over thirty years of my life as a Christian to finally realize that I really knew nothing at all about God, Until I took the time to really learn his word. And I can now truly say I am Christian and am still learning to continue to build my relationship with Christ.
So before you decide to say God does not exist, Maybe take time to really study about him before taking the easy road of just saying he does not exist.

[KindGalaxy]

I'm a member of the New Life Church and the basics of our Faith is simple, we believe in the divine inspiration and authority of The Bible, that there is one God who lives in three persons; Father, Son and Holy Spirit, The incarnation and that Jesus Christ came to redeem the world, we believe in the Finished work of Christ, that there is no further need for sacrifice nor works to be right with God, Jesus did it all; "It is Finished." We believe in full water immersion baptism and the baptism of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit enables us to use spiritual gifts, including speaking in tongues, We believe that our eternal destination of either Heaven or Hell is determined by our response to the Lord Jesus Christ.

Religion is something I do not talk about outside of those with my Faith but, those are the basic teachings I follow and anything beyond that, any questioning on why we have disease, why we have wars, why we have murder, famine, hatred is merely a product of two things; our lives on this Earth are designed to be finite, we were never meant to live on in these bodies and through man's own design, malevolence, intimidation, lust and greed we have such things as war, murder, hatred. Should God than sweep his hand across the Earth and say no more?

He did that already, a couple of times, notably He wiped out virtually the entire Human Race save Noah and his people. The method of sweeping across the globe and starting over did not seem to work so well, and so we received a new method beyond strict belief and following in God, such as Abraham being directed to sacrifice Isaac in the land of Moriah. We were given a new way to receive God, a new way to our Eternal lives.

That way was through Jesus Christ, who died for all past sins of Man. The path to your Eternal life is determined by your relationship with Him, not with your relationship with an organised religion, not with your ability to bring more to the flock. That path to your Eternal life is between you and Lord Jesus Christ. So I won't be one to push forth an agenda here.




A man died and is in the elevator to Heaven with Saint Peter.
Ding, the elevator sounded.
"This level is Jewish Heaven." Said Saint Peter, the newly deceased man nodded.
Ding, the elevator sounded again.
"This level is for the Presbyterians," Explained Saint Peter, "So as you can see..." Saint Peter fell quiet as they approached the third level, raising his finger to his mouth to motion for silence, the elevator did not ding, not a sound was heard and the elevator continued for several levels until Saint Peter lowered his hand.
"And here is your destination child." Saint Peter said.
"Why... why did we skip those levels? Why did we have to be so quiet?"
"Ohhhh... that was Christian Heaven, they think they're the only ones here."

It is a great thing to be able to laugh at one's self.

[Winged One]

Truthfully, my father did have some impact on my decision. When I was four, he basically came out and told me when my mother was not there "There is no heaven. It's just clouds. If it were my choice, you wouldn't be going to mass or religion class."

[Black Op]

As for me, I fail to see how God's existance should be treated any different from that of any other deity or mythological entity. Most people are comfortable with declaring Zeus, Amon-Ra, Marduk, Xenu, farries, and unicorns nonexistant because there is no scientific evidence to substantiate them. The same applies for God since no supporting evidence exists to prove the validity of his existance and that of various Biblical events. How can I believe in the truth of the Bible if it totally mucks up the order of creation as we know it by science? One "poorly-researched" book is hardly enough to make me a theist by any means.

I could continue even longer to explain how I became an atheist, but this will do for now.

[KindGalaxy]

Couldn't someone use the same argument against Science though BlackOp? Science once told me smoking was okay, doctors recommended brands at one point. Now it is bad for your health.

Scientists are split on whether global warming is happening or not; hasn't stopped people believing it to be true, nor has it stopped people believing it to be false... which is it? Which scientist/science do you believe?

One second we're told mobile phones cause cancer, now we're told they don't, or at least the output they have is nothing outside the norm in our lives with other objects.

You use the vision of Zeus, Amon-Ra and so forth being comfortable to declare them nonexistent, it was also science that once believed the Earth was flat, the sun revolves around the Earth and when the first car was invented it was scientists that told us not to drive above 30mph or your face would fall off.

Evolution in the Science world is no different to Evolution in the Religious world, both change over the decades, centuries, millennia, Christianity itself was a diversion of the Jewish religion; those who followed Christ and those who did not. Islam is split into two groups; Sunni and Shiite over a difference in prophets. Just the same as Science and Scientists are divided in so many categories.

[Kester]

The way I see it is, I'd rather not believe in something and get proved wrong when I die, than believe in something and get proved wrong when I die.

As long as I live a good life, a just 'god' would never refuse entry to a good after life.

[Quasar]

The way I see it is, I'd rather not believe in something and get proved wrong when I die, than believe in something and get proved wrong when I die.
As long as I live a good life, a just 'god' would never refuse entry to a good after life.Ok, let's say you wanted to go to the E3 convention this year. You show up at the door and tell the guard, "Hey, I've been a real good gamer since I was little. Let me in! If you're fair, you'll let me in!"

He goes, "Show your pass and you can get in." But you say, "Well, I don't have a pass. I've been a good gamer." The guard says, "Sorry guy. If you don't have an official pass that says you are accepted into the E3 convention, it doesn't really matter how good of a gamer you've been. You can be a lousy gamer and come in if only you had an E3 pass. You just need to have that pass..."

Bringing this all home, we all get a pass from God to enter the "good afterlife" after we die but you also enjoy the benefits right here on Earth too. We can't earn the pass by being good-- it's based solely upon us asking for it from the ultimate Pass-Giver. If you've read Kind Galaxy's synopsis of what this means., that's basically the whole process in a nutshell.

Sorry for the poor analogy about getting into E3 but when I was actually able to enter the E3 convention back in 2006, it really did feel that I made it into gaming heaven. lol.

[Black Op]

Couldn't someone use the same argument against Science though BlackOp? Science once told me smoking was okay, doctors recommended brands at one point. Now it is bad for your health.
"Our king once told us that praying to the sun god was okay, he recommended religious orders devoted to the sun god at one point. Ever since he converted to Christianity, now it is bad for your spirital health to not worship God." :P

Joking aside, the thing with science is that as new facts are discovered, we can rework and modify theories to explain what happens around us more accurately. However religion does not have a framework to modify and rework the theories that all these religions create. All they have are their various scriptures, while scientists were able to provide physical and tangible evidence to prove that smoking is bad.

By the way, it didn't help that the tobacco companies were bribing scientists to endorse their products.

Scientists are split on whether global warming is happening or not; hasn't stopped people believing it to be true, nor has it stopped people believing it to be false... which is it? Which scientist/science do you believe?
Read through this thread here (http://forums.gamernode.com/showthread.php?t=13445) to view my stance on global warming. This issue is a red herring anyway when applied to our debate since sooner or later, evidence to prove or disprove global warming once and for all will be produced. We can't do the same thing with deities however.

One second we're told mobile phones cause cancer, now we're told they don't, or at least the output they have is nothing outside the norm in our lives with other objects.
See above.

You use the vision of Zeus, Amon-Ra and so forth being comfortable to declare them nonexistent, it was also science that once believed the Earth was flat, the sun revolves around the Earth and when the first car was invented it was scientists that told us not to drive above 30mph or your face would fall off.
Also see above.

Evolution in the Science world is no different to Evolution in the Religious world, both change over the decades, centuries, millennia, Christianity itself was a diversion of the Jewish religion; those who followed Christ and those who did not. Islam is split into two groups; Sunni and Shiite over a difference in prophets. Just the same as Science and Scientists are divided in so many categories.
How are scientists so divided anyway? When it comes to time-tested theories that have survived heavy scrunity, scientists generally come to a consensus on those issues until some sort of proven evidence requires theories to be redeveloped. Credible scientists all use the same Scientific Method and the process of peer review in order to back up those theories. Of course religion and science have changed thoughout time, but HOW they accomplish this change is fundementally different.

[KindGalaxy]

Sorry for the poor analogy about getting into E3 but when I was actually able to enter the E3 convention back in 2006, it really did feel that I made it into gaming heaven. lol.

2006 E3 would've been gaming heaven >.< The Last Year of the Booth Babe!

Read through this thread here to view my stance on global warming. This issue is a red herring anyway when applied to our debate since sooner or later, evidence to prove or disprove global warming once and for all will be produced. We can't do the same thing with deities however.

Well, that's where faith comes into it, and why try as science might to show all religions are false, try as it might to disprove the existence of God, it just won't matter. People will always believe in God; in all His forms, people will always believe in a Heaven; in all its meaning. That is why we've had such a large number of religions throughout our history, from Mayan sacrifice to the Sun God, to Egyptian worship of Ra the Sun God, Hindu belief has Garuda, a Sun God who directs people in leading a righteous life and shows evil men the path of good, Japan had Amaterasu, the Sun Goddess who was injured by her brother and hid in a cave closed by a gigantic rock and when she heard of a huge party for her she came out. In Ancient Japan they would, around December 21st in our Calendar, host a huge party with loud music and ceremonial dancing to get her out of the cave.

The vast majority of the world will continue to have faith, have religion, believe in God, believe in Heaven, because that is a far more beautiful thing than believing when we die we'll be nothing more than food for worms, that all that awaits us when we die is oblivion; no memory, no existence, nothing. You Gotta Have Faith.

How are scientists so divided anyway? When it comes to time-tested theories that have survived heavy scrunity, scientists generally come to a consensus on those issues until some sort of proven evidence requires theories to be redeveloped. Credible scientists all use the same Scientific Method and the process of peer review in order to back up those theories. Of course religion and science have changed thoughout time, but HOW they accomplish this change is fundementally different.

So Peer Review, meaning a theory is presented to a select group of scientists who were in turn selected by their peers who were a select group of scientists to come to a conclusion in the negative or positive if a theory is indeed true or false, so really all you need is votes...

By the way, it didn't help that the tobacco companies were bribing scientists to endorse their products.

Peer Review at work 'eh? A few bribes, a few votes, and anything can go from theory to science.

[Black Op]

The vast majority of the world will continue to have faith, have religion, believe in God, believe in Heaven, because that is a far more beautiful thing than believing when we die we'll be nothing more than food for worms, that all that awaits us when we die is oblivion; no memory, no existence, nothing. You Gotta Have Faith.
It's a pity that humanity might never be able to shake off its collective fear of death. Sure I don't like the thought that nothingness can await me upon death, but at least I can choose to live life to the fullest rather than become mentally crippled due to a fear of human mortality.

So Peer Review, meaning a theory is presented to a select group of scientists who were in turn selected by their peers who were a select group of scientists to come to a conclusion in the negative or positive if a theory is indeed true or false, so really all you need is votes...
It's quite a bit more complicated than just 'voting' on a theory. Typically, manuscripts of theories are sent by editors of scientific jounals to various experts who ensre more or less that "every i is dotted" (ie. if the scientific method is used correctly and if other scientists can recreate the process to create matching data). Generally, it's only scientists who judge these theories because they are the ONLY qualified experts that can accurately review theories. If you wish to learn from a more accurate source, go ask Mad Scientist since he's actually in the scientific community.

Peer Review at work 'eh? A few bribes, a few votes, and anything can go from theory to science.
An endorsement directed towards the mindless public is not peer review by any means. Go read a scientific journal (and not a magazine about science which is meant to be read by the masses) if you want a true example of peer review.

[KindGalaxy]

I have an active subscription to New Scientist... does that count? B)

I wonder if you believe in Aliens Black Op? Just curious, because the vast majority of people believe in Aliens yet there is no proof of their existence beyond 'the universe is so big, there just HAS to be more intelligent life out there'. We've even heard scientists say as much. Yet there is no actual proof of their existence, same is surely said of religion, which is a faith-based mechanism with man-made guidelines on the same basic principles; we were made by intelligent design. Whether that intelligent design, God, formed us from single cell organisms and indeed let evolution take its course or went and pushed a button and out popped Adam is up to your personal faith.

Sure I don't like the thought that nothingness can await me upon death, but at least I can choose to live life to the fullest rather than become mentally crippled due to a fear of human mortality.

I also don't think I'm mentally crippled... I used to work as door security for the Imperial Hotel in Sydney (it is a transexual night club where Priscilla Queen of the Desert started), I'm happily married; to a buddhist, go rock climbing, I've sky dived, loved Bioshock and GTA Vice City, I'm a Cam Whore on the ForumzWarz Gamernode Clan (basically roleplaying a female), seen the world, lived in China for 2 years, lived in Hong Kong for 3 years.

My Church is evangelical by definition, we follow the Bible in very strict terms, but that doesn't mean we can't have fun. The number one principle we teach is to love one another regardless, which is why most in my church do support stem cell research, abortion, homosexual rights, divorce (especially when children are concerned), they don't affect our personal lives but if we oppose such things than we are affecting other people's personal lives. The minister of my specific Church was a HUGE Diablo 2 fan when it came out, after Church a few months ago we argued about how bad, very very bad, Hellgate: London was, not from a Christian perspective but from a "My goodness, this game is as buggy as hell" perspective.

I suppose if you pigeon hole all Christians that we are all D&D-hating Homophobes who think the world was good in the 8th century than sure, we are mentally crippled, but we aren't all like that.

Oh and I believe in Aliens, just going back to my question to you Black Op if you did; regardless of no proof or not. God wouldn't have started the great universe and just plop one tiny planet with intelligent life in the sea of hundreds of millions of planets. There have to be more out there, and I do wonder if they are on their version of the internet debating why some of their species do not believe in a higher power.

[Solokiller]

Science once told me smoking was okay, doctors recommended brands at one point. Now it is bad for your health.

The idea of god has existed for thousands of years, the idea of sigarettes being good for your health has existed for 100 years or so, and now we already know it's not. If you can prove it, prove it before announcing it to everybody.

[KindGalaxy]

The idea of god has existed for thousands of years, the idea of sigarettes being good for your health has existed for 100 years or so, and now we already know it's not. If you can prove it, prove it before announcing it to everybody.

I think that's the best thing about belief in God, one doesn't have to prove it. We just believe in Him. The mere fact that there are 2.1 Billion Christians, 1.5 Billion Muslims, 900 Million Hindi, 14 Million Jews not to mention all the other religions believe in God without proof; just on faith is an astounding thing.

[Black Op]

I wonder if you believe in Aliens Black Op? Just curious, because the vast majority of people believe in Aliens yet there is no proof of their existence beyond 'the universe is so big, there just HAS to be more intelligent life out there'. We've even heard scientists say as much.
There's a possibility that aliens can exist. While we can't know for sure with our current technology, our very existance alone is a sign that the development of other intelligent life can occur. We can't say the same for God though since we haven't seen any signs of an all-powerful, universe-creating deity (let alone be able to specify what deity it is).

Whether that intelligent design, God, formed us from single cell organisms and indeed let evolution take its course or went and pushed a button and out popped Adam is up to your personal faith.
But isn't that cherry-picking from the Bible though? If we waive away any known inconsistances the Bible has with reality, over time we'd get to the point where the Bible merely becomes a set of morals and guidelines to live by (some of which are overwritten by later decrees made in the same book) without the sponsorship of the all-powerful deity. At that point, either a new set of scriptures has to be created to keep up with scientific (and social) advances or else humanity will have to settle for a moral system that doesn't bother with the supernatural at all.

I also don't think I'm mentally crippled
By that I meant that the acknowledgment that there's no afterlife and the inability to cope with it.

The minister of my specific Church was a HUGE Diablo 2 fan when it came out, after Church a few months ago we argued about how bad, very very bad, Hellgate: London was, not from a Christian perspective but from a "My goodness, this game is as buggy as hell" perspective.
You pay tithes to your church just so you lot can rant and rave about your favorite computer games!!? You're getting ripped off! :tongue:

Oh and I believe in Aliens... God wouldn't have started the great universe and just plop one tiny planet with intelligent life in the sea of hundreds of millions of planets. There have to be more out there, and I do wonder if they are on their version of the internet debating why some of their species do not believe in a higher power.
Believe what you want to believe, us nonreligious folk only ask that you don't assume your beliefs are actually proven facts and that you don't let your beliefs cripple your ability to think rationally (which is unfortunetly a problem concerning many religious extremists).

I think that's the best thing about belief in God, one doesn't have to prove it. We just believe in Him.
I think that happens to be one of the worst things about belief in God. By declaring that the existance of God doesn't have to be proven, those that follow that message will believe that they don't have to think critically about the world around them. A society couldn't function properly if that mindset applied to all aspects of it; idiots would run it into the ground without bothering to think about the consequences of their actions. By discouraging the practice of believing without question, I would think that we'd see less idiots in the world.

[Sersoft.corp]

I choose not to beleive in anything like that because I don't want to be disappointed when I die or get sick and there's no heaven/hell/afterlife and no god to save me.

If there is, I'll be pleasently surprised, but for now, there isn't.

[KindGalaxy]

You pay tithes to your church just so you lot can rant and rave about your favorite computer games!!? You're getting ripped off! :tongue:

hehe, actually we don't do tithes at my Church. We have fundraises, and dvds from concerts we host, and funding comes from individuals, who decide to donate money to causes or works we do, be they works around the Church itself (which is really just a recently renovated community hall) or money for our work in East Timor and similar counties.. I have two jobs, one full time and one a personal business, seperate from my work in the Church to make money.


Believe what you want to believe, us nonreligious folk only ask that you don't assume your beliefs are actually proven facts and that you don't let your beliefs cripple your ability to think rationally (which is unfortunetly a problem concerning many religious extremists).

If we don't roll our eyes at you nonreligious folk than please don't roll your eyes at us :) only fair isn't it? Whilst yes, I do agree there are Christians who believe, totally, that the Earth is 8,000 years old, that Dinosaurs are a creation of scientists to further disprove the existence of God and that Batman is the devil (thanks Nan, for burning my First Issue of Batman, and my 1938 hand-me-down Issue 1 of Action Comics starring Superman), we're not ALL like that. I loved Jurassic Park.


I think that happens to be one of the worst things about belief in God. By declaring that the existance of God doesn't have to be proven, those that follow that message will believe that they don't have to think critically about the world around them. A society couldn't function properly if that mindset applied to all aspects of it; idiots would run it into the ground without bothering to think about the consequences of their actions. By discouraging the practice of believing without question, I would think that we'd see less idiots in the world.

But that is one of the key points in any religion; Faith. We have Faith in God, that's enough for us. It is a good thing that throughout entire human history, Religion has never been the single mindset applied to all aspects, Blind Faith has never been applied to all aspects of society, in any country. We've had very strong religious countries in the past and we continue to have very strong religious countries today but that has never stopped Science, Medicine, Education, Economy, Agriculture from working in society alongside Religion.

[bu11eTJuNkiE]

The problem with most non believers and Christians alike is the fact they don’t take the time study the bible and scriptures. So many people find it easier to just say they don’t believe than to take the time to study the Bible and Christianity. Being a Christian is much more than going to Church, Giving your Tithes, and trying to be a "good" person. It’s about studying the word of Christ and understanding it and mostly it’s about building a relationship with God. I have been a Christian almost my whole life, But only in the last few years have I begun to understand what the Bible means, Just reading the Bible is not even going to get you close to understanding Christianity, But studying it and taking the time to find the parallels between the old and new testament is such an awesome discovery. The Bible has so much to say about our past history and even tells of things to come.
We have Gods will, Mans will, and Satans will. And with these wills it is both an earthly and spiritual battle for Man to choose what will he wants to follow. Lets not forget who Satan is...He was at first Gods highest ranking Angel, But because God gave us all our own will Lucifer thought he was worthy of announcing himself as a God, And because of this he was sent to earth along with one third of the angels that followed him with their own free will. Also lets not confuse Gods love for us and the thought that he should remove all war, sickness and evil from earth...if that was the case then we would lose the most important thing in life ...Our free will... SO with all my rambling on I will leave you with this. It has taken me over thirty years of my life as a Christian to finally realize that I really knew nothing at all about God, Until I took the time to really learn his word. And I can now truly say I am Christian and am still learning to continue to build my relationship with Christ.
So before you decide to say God does not exist, Maybe take time to really study about him before taking the easy road of just saying he does not exist.

I used to be Catholic and went to "sunday school" for ~11 years. Somewhat recent events that are kind of personal and would rather not discuss have changed my mind though. It just wanted to make sure everybody knew that I knew about catholicism. I'm not saying you directed your post at me, but it was after mine so I needed to set the record straight.

[rtanger]

I thought Black Op made an important observation about why so many pantheons of Gods can be so readily dismissed, while others so readily accepted.

To me, that Western religions have survived so long is a testament only to how long Western civilization itself has survived. When we're gone, just like the Greeks, the Romans, the Aztecs, the Inca, and so on before us, our gods will die with our civilization.

I'll bet (an easy bet) that each previous culture believed as strongly in their pantheon as some folks today believe as strongly in theirs.

However, this is clearly an idea that cannot be tested.

Personally, I've started to take quite the liking to some of the Eastern philosophies. Ones such as Zen and Tao, that speak to the same ideals as Western religions-- respect and love of life and nature, humility, kindness, etc.-- but without the retributive gods and angels on the sidelines.

Just to subscribe to some basic tenets of virtue and good living is enough for me. I don't need a deity to instill these within me.

I suppose it is worth mentioning that I spent most of my life up until the age of 11 attending a Mennonite church, both sermon and Sunday school. I was unwavering in my belief of God for many years. I'm not sure exactly when this started to change, or exactly how, but the past 13 years have seen numerous changes in my thoughts and philosophies on life.

I just cannot accept the idea of God anymore. Like I said before, I find the beauty in our existence in the idea that it is indeed happenstance, or simply a condition of the universe. I don't like, and don't want, to swallow the idea that humanity is special in our uniqueness. I just CANNOT accept that. I can't. I don't want to. We as humans give ourselves entirely too much credit, too much leeway by believing we're somehow special. That we were created solely to have dominion over this planet. That train of thought is wreaking untold havoc on this sphere of ours.

But meh. Arguing religion is the best way to ruin a day. I don't think I have anything more to say on this, or ever really did.

[Black Op]

But that is one of the key points in any religion; Faith. We have Faith in God, that's enough for us. It is a good thing that throughout entire human history, Religion has never been the single mindset applied to all aspects, Blind Faith has never been applied to all aspects of society, in any country. We've had very strong religious countries in the past and we continue to have very strong religious countries today but that has never stopped Science, Medicine, Education, Economy, Agriculture from working in society alongside Religion.
I wouldn't go so far to say that faith has always been a good thing, remember the Crusades and the Inquisition? While fields like science and education currently exist alongside religion today, it doesn't mean that all religious forces tolerate this current situation. Time and time again we see people use their religion as a poor excuse to interfere with modern day progress such as teaching evolution, research on stem cells, the ability to recieve contraceptives and abortions. If the Christian fundamentalists had their way, we'd all be setting the stage for the Second Coming and the violence that'll come with it. It's also the most religious countries like Iran and Saudi Arabia that turn out to be the most backwards in terms of scientific and social progress. Your chruch seems to be progressive enough KindGalaxy, but ultimately its more extremist demoninations and sects that succeed in extending their power over countries since their beliefs command them to do so.

[KindGalaxy]

I wouldn't go so far to say that faith has always been a good thing, remember the Crusades and the Inquisition? While fields like science and education currently exist alongside religion today, it doesn't mean that all religious forces tolerate this current situation. Time and time again we see people use their religion as a poor excuse to interfere with modern day progress such as teaching evolution, research on stem cells, the ability to recieve contraceptives and abortions. If the Christian fundamentalists had their way, we'd all be setting the stage for the Second Coming and the violence that'll come with it. It's also the most religious countries like Iran and Saudi Arabia that turn out to be the most backwards in terms of scientific and social progress. Your chruch seems to be progressive enough KindGalaxy, but ultimately its more extremist demoninations and sects that succeed in extending their power over countries since their beliefs command them to do so.

But it doesn't halt modern day progress, yeah religion can interfere, but so does science interfere with religion, one is not empowered over the other. We've never actually stopped progress in the name of religion, and neither has Saudi Arabia or Iran, Iran has the highest volume of drinkable water in the Middle East and has an extremely low doctor-to-population ratio (1 doctor for every 1000 citizens with a population of 70 million), just because their country is a religious state doesn't automatically make them backwards and Saudi Arabia is a Monarchy and their laws are not religious in nature; such as the amputation of hands or feet for robbery.

I'd also argue that if we had no religion, we'd still have extremist populations extending their influence over other countries, that's just the nature of mass population in a single area under a single banner, Iraq extended their influence over Kuwait was not over religion, Japan extended their influence over Korea was not over religion, USA extended their influence into Iraq was not over religion, Germany and Poland, USSR and Afghanistan, Israel and Egypt. If we're going to go back 800 years and more to the Crusades when yes, the Catholic States did extend their influence religiously into the Middle East, then I'd love to go back 800 years and more to compare the Science of then with the Science of now.

It does seem that people are more upset with the idea of religion, and they throw a minority people to argue their case; Osama Bin Laden, Cults, Scientology, Zionism, Free Masonry, Sex-Offending Reverends to push a truly anti-religion argument but everybody does this to push their personal agenda, we in Australia killed an entire species of indigenous dogs on the belief they killed our farm animals; we were presented proof of this in other countries with other animals, even lions in Africa, to push for the extermination of a species. USA said Iraq had WMDs in the 21st century, they presented the fact that Iraq had them in the late 1980s and so must have them today too. And yeah, religion does it too, God talked to me and said I had to become a Robe-wearing Cult Leader and serve punch so everyone can take a journey to heaven with me, my proof is the Bible that is filled with people who have had conversations with God and He has directed them to do His works and now He's coming to me to do this, now drink the poison/punch. It is not indicative of all religions, in all the world, in all denominations.

[Mad Scientist]

But it doesn't halt modern day progress, yeah religion can interfere, but so does science interfere with religion, one is not empowered over the other.

You are trying to articulate a belief in what theologians have called NOMA, or non-overlapping-magisterium. The idea is simply that science tells us some things about the universe, and religion tells us others. For example Science explains things that happen to us in our life, and religion supposedly tells us what will happen after our death.

Its a nice theory, but it doesn't seem to apply to the real world, because religion does not keep to it's side of the line:

and why, try as science might to show all religions are false, try as it might to disprove the existence of God, it just won't matter.

I know of no respected scientist who has EVER tried to directly prove the existence of a god. Science often does disprove events as laid out in a holy book, but nobody tries to disprove the existence of a god. The reason being is that science works on evidence and observation, things that the most ardent believers claim do not hold any bearing on a god. There may be the odd loud-mouth such as Richard Dawkins, but all they do is express their own belief's in a scientific context. What science HAS done, which most believers take as an affront to their faith, is demonstrate that the universe does not require a god to bring it into existence, and manage it's day to day operations. Science has disproved the necessity for god in a physical context. Not the existence of God.

However, religion frequently does overstep it's boundaries. It makes claims about the origins of the universe and how species came to be. It makes claims as to the outcome of the earth and civilisation based on the morality of the present day, rather than the analysis of current social or economic trends. If you accept NOMA, then the role of religion is to tell us about things that science cannot, such as life after death, and the suchlike. If science started claiming knowledge of such things based on evidence, then you could argue it was at fault, but this doesn't really happen. However religion DOES claim knowledge of the workings of the world, based on faith. This is where the conflict rises.

Ultimately, the two are different tools. Science is a constructive, self correcting tool for explaining the operations of the universe, and translating those explanations into devices and concepts that make human existence easier and more fruitful. Religion is a pathological, self-reinforcing belief system that uses faith as a compass for moral decisions, and extrapolation of knowledge to non observable realms (fictitious or otherwise).

However, if i could make one little remark, religion IS categorically interfering with scientific progress. Many avenues of research are becoming increasingly difficult to pursue due to the lobbying of religious activists, such as stem-cell or genetic research. I have, in all my days as a student of the natural sciences, never once seen other scholars violently attack churches or other religious institutions. I cannot say the same for certain believers attacking scientific facilities and research labs.

[Black Op]

Iran has the highest volume of drinkable water in the Middle East and has an extremely low doctor-to-population ratio (1 doctor for every 1000 citizens with a population of 70 million), just because their country is a religious state doesn't automatically make them backwards
Iranian laws dictate that homosexuals have to be put to death. Committing apostasy is also punishable by death. Is that not backwards to you?

Saudi Arabia is a Monarchy and their laws are not religious in nature; such as the amputation of hands or feet for robbery.
According to the Basic Law of Saudi Arabia established in 1992, the Qur'an is the official constitution of the country and that all Saudi laws must be compatable with the sharia. Needless to say, the Qur'an and some of the hadith perscribes amputation as a punishment for theft. I fail to see how religion can be such a non-factor in this situation.

I'd also argue that if we had no religion, we'd still have extremist populations extending their influence over other countries
Guess what? Implimenting total bans on firearms will not eliminate crime. Anti-tobacco propaganda will not destroy the tobacco industry once and for all. Giving each person a home and some money will not put an end to poverty. So why bother doing any single thing if it will not achieve 100% results? Even if extremism itself survives the end of religion, such an event would be sure to cut down the amount of extemist people in the world. If I had to choose between letting religion exist and sacrificing it in order to reduce extremism in any significant amount, I'd pick the latter.

It does seem that people are more upset with the idea of religion, and they throw a minority people to argue their case... It is not indicative of all religions, in all the world, in all denominations.
But we've seen throughout history that religion's ills are not confined to a mere collection of wackjobs. We all saw how the Catholic Church used its power over society when it preformed the Inquisition, tried to prevent the publishing of the Bible in vernacular languages, and silenced individuals like Galileo. Even now the Church struggles to fight abortion, genetic manipulation, and any other experiments that are "morally debatable". When Martin Luther broke away from the Church and created the Protestant movement, that just happened to spark the Thirty Years' War in Germany. The fundenmentialist movement in America grows stronger with each passing year as they indoctrinate more and more people to believe that anyone who's not one of them will be condemmed to Hell, and thus should not be repected at all. Generations of anti-Semitism made it easy for Hitler to get away with his Holocaust. In modern times Israel maintains its right to remain a Jewish state, which was promised in their Bible, at the expense of the Arab population, thus allowing for the Holy Land violence to continue without an end in sight. Both Saudi Arabia and Iran which use sharia as the primary component of their legal systems have serious human rights issues, while Sunnis and Shia engage in sectarian conflicts in Iraq. Muslims all too many times have issued death threats and sometimes even riot whenever they percieve an insult to their religion (remember the Danish cartoon controversy), now people are afraid of offending Islam in any way out of fear. Not to leave the East out of this, the Hindu caste system allowed for the mistreatment of lower castes such as the untouchables because they were restricted to ritually impure occupations. Finally despite all the idyllic myths that describe Tibet before the Chinese occupation, the Buddhist rulers of that land exploited their serf population only a little bit better than slaves and were quite willing to use torture and mutilation to punish their subjects.

You see, you can't just handwave away the problems of religion by merely stating that only a fringe of extremists are to blame. All the mainstream religions have abused their powers in one time or another using various methods. While some faiths can believe in such values as tolerance and actually impliment them, the more powerful faiths with the majority of followers (and thus the ones with a better chance of growing) have usually tended to be much less progressive. If it wasn't for secularist pressure, the big religions would never have had any incentive to conform to the values that modernized societies have.

[KindGalaxy]

Well um... 0.0
I've never actually thought that deeply on Religion in a global sense, not to the point where I could develop an actual argument against what both of you are saying (Black Op and Mad Scientist), and honestly I don't think it needs to be argued since yeah, you're right.
For the most part either religious individuals are convinced Science is all bullshot or don't actually take the time to consider if it is or not. The vocal mob will always be there to decry genetic research, abortion is bad, divorce is never an option, they will pick and choose their verses; Lay with another man is an abomination, love thy neighbour.
You will have thousands, if not millions of people telling you that God made us out of sand, that He really did create everything in 6 days. I believe God was a broad-strokes creator, He started the beginning and let things ride themselves out.
However, as I said, I really can't argue against anything the two of you just said, nor will I even attempt to.

People's relationship with God is and always should be a personal thing, that's one thing very clear in the Bible, it has never said to actively pursue others to enforce your values onto them.
“If you love me, obey my commandments. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor, who will never leave you. He is the Holy Spirit, who leads into all truth. The world at large cannot receive him, because it isn't looking for him and doesn't recognize him. But you do, because he lives with you now and later will be in you.” John 14:15-17
The you in that verse is you as an individual, not on any other level, your relationship with the Holy Spirit, with God, with Jesus Christ is a personal relationship. The world at large can not receive him, because he lives with you.

Unfortunately yes, most Religions do force their values onto other people.

[Swedish Elite]

This gives me an headache.

[SpaceMonkee12]

Can we all be a little honest here? This discussion of religion is not a discussion of religion at all. It is a discussion of Christianity, Islam and Judaism. Animistic religions (original African, Native American, and most other early cultures) have stories that explain creation, but most are really only concerned with keeping the gods/spirits/ancestors appeased. Indian (from India) religions focus on Karma and escaping the circle of incarnation. The Chinese religions of Tao and Confusionism can be argued more as philosophies than true religions.
OK, that's all I wanted to say...for now...

[KindGalaxy]

I don't think there are any Animistic, Taoist or Confused people that visit GamerNode... Probably why they weren't really mentioned.

[SpaceMonkee12]

Oh, clever boy. This is me celebrating your oh-so-scathing wit. I was trying to point out that not all world religions consume themselves with one supreme being that created the universe. So, I think arguing science vs. religion is a misnomer. To be the most honest it would have to be science vs. western religions.
Isn't it also a bit irresponsible to assume what faith people may or may not practice? Just a thought.

[Black Op]

Confused people that visit GamerNode....
Confucist people, they're called Confucist people..... :P

I was trying to point out that not all world religions consume themselves with one supreme being that created the universe. So, I think arguing science vs. religion is a misnomer. To be the most honest it would have to be science vs. western religions. Isn't it also a bit irresponsible to assume what faith people may or may not practice?
Does it really matter if every single religion has to be mentioned in this thread? All the worlds' religions essentially use the same standards of proof (ie. faith included with a set of scriptures or oral traditions), thus the basic religion-refuting arguments can apply to all of them by just switching around various names. It just so happens that the majority of people who can carry out these debates over the internet live in the Abrahamic sphere of influence, so the fact that western religions get referred to the most shouldn't come as a suprise.

[vincian]

So yeah, I think existence and life is one big cosmic joke, but it's a joke that we are in on. You'll find out more when you die... not all of it, but more of it. I promise.

[vincian]

I think existence and life is one big cosmic joke, but it's a joke that we are in on. You'll find out more when you die... not all of it, but more of it. I promise.

(I'd consider myself a Christan due to the fact that I follow the philosophies of Jesus, you know, love thy neighbor, he without sin cast the first stone... maybe I'm a blasphemous heathen according to Pat Robertson, but screw him. I happen to think gay people are cool)

[rtanger]

Can we all be a little honest here? This discussion of religion is not a discussion of religion at all. It is a discussion of Christianity, Islam and Judaism. Animistic religions (original African, Native American, and most other early cultures) have stories that explain creation, but most are really only concerned with keeping the gods/spirits/ancestors appeased. Indian (from India) religions focus on Karma and escaping the circle of incarnation. The Chinese religions of Tao and Confusionism can be argued more as philosophies than true religions.
OK, that's all I wanted to say...for now...

It's because the mentioned religions in this thread are pertinent to the concept of atheism, and those you mentioned, by and large, are not. Except perhaps Hinduism. Atheism isn't of itself a complete rejection of all religion, it's the rejection of or disbelief in a higher power, be it god or deity.

Ancestor worship and Eastern philosophies hardly apply in the scope of this discussion. Granted, a number of us (me included) took a more anti-organized-religion stance than the idea of atheism precludes, which can and does happen.

Atheism itself is not the rejection of religion, but given the stance of many religions and the atheist's usual take that Gods don't exist outside the minds of people, then the rejection of deistic religions generally follows suit.

I actually did mention an interest in Taoist philosophy earlier in this thread, but given that I am more often than not seemingly invisible around here, it was probably missed.

edit- I also want to add that I don't necessarily think that atheism denies one the ability to be spiritual and mystical, the denial of a higher power does not equal the denial of forces we may not understand. But that's just my take. Some of the philosophy to come out of quantum dynamics is all rather interesting, and, to me, lends credence to the ideas of latent energies and vibrations that all matter emits may have some profound effects on our day-to-day lives. I don't need to believe in a deity to believe that there are greater mysteries of this universe that inextricably bind us to each other and to the universe itself. Does that make me agnostic? By definition, it would seem probably not.

[Atomic Waffle]

Just in terms of allocation of time resources, religion is not very efficient. There's a lot more I could be doing on a Sunday morning.

- Bill Gates

[Kester]

Atheism isn't of itself a complete rejection of all religion, it's the rejection of or disbelief in a higher power, be it god or deity.
The way I see it is you have religion and atheism at the same end of the scale, they are both belief systems. At the other end is agnosticism - a non belief, or acceptance we'll never really know, and that our time would be better served worrying about more important things.

[vc22348]

If a tree falls in the woods and no one is there to experience it, did it make a sound?
If God talks in the woods and no one is there to experience it, does God exist?

The crucial question in all of this is, if there were no humans on earth, what would God and Satan's purpose be then? Both are wonderful creations of humankind. Until science cracks the mystery of life, the questions will rage on.

It is important for people to believe in something. Anything. It's scary to see life leave a body, anybody's body, any living thing's "vessel." Until we can figure what powers life, we as humans will continue to try to deal with it the best way we know how, with myth, mysticism, and faith. Nothing wrong with any of it, until it fosters hate or intolerance.

[Jacob]

If a tree falls in the woods and no one is there to experience it, did it make a sound?
If God talks in the woods and no one is there to experience it, does God exist?

The crucial question in all of this is, if there were no humans on earth, what would God and Satan's purpose be then? Both are wonderful creations of humankind. Until science cracks the mystery of life, the questions will rage on.

It is important for people to believe in something. Anything. It's scary to see life leave a body, anybody's body, any living thing's "vessel." Until we can figure what powers life, we as humans will continue to try to deal with it the best way we know how, with myth, mysticism, and faith. Nothing wrong with any of it, until it fosters hate or intolerance.I never understood the "if a tree falls" idea, finding it incredibly stupid. The thought that something could fail to exist (be it a tree or a god) because we fail to see it angers me without end. Just because someone is not around to observe something doesn't diminish the existence of it.

And yet, I won't believe and find hope in something that isn't there, and will never be there. I would rather see and know what is before me and explore paths that seem mysterious, not try to discover the slimmest chance of something being there. If I did that, I would end up lying to myself just to satisfy my need. I think I would treat myself better than that. :dry: